Sleep & Bedtime Strategies

Shawna: 00:00:00

And so let's dig into why sleep can be hard. From families. We'll often hear that kids are waking up multiple times at night and that some of the kids have a.

Usually I'll chat with families about whether does your child have difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep or both, or are they.

Other families I've worked with have had really specific bedtime routines, and if they don't follow that routine, then it's really tricky for the child to go to sleep.

Brittany: 00:00:27

Hey, everyone, I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

Shawna: 00:00:30

And I'm Shawna, behavior analyst.

Brittany: 00:00:32

And we're your hosts at Neurodiversally Speaking.

Shawna: 00:00:34

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior.

Brittany: 00:00:41

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Shawna: 00:00:47

Let's get started.

Narrator: 00:00:49

Welcome to the Neurodiversally Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shawna Fleming from lmno, brought to you by the Sensory Supply. While we aim to make Is Neurodiversally Speaking suitable for all audiences? Mature subject matter can sometimes be discussed.

Suitable only for those over the age of 18.

If you're under the age of 18, please talk to your parent or guardian before listening to our show or listen together with them to stay up to date on new episode releases and show updates. Connect with us on Instagram @NeurodiversallySpeaking.

You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at hello@NeurodiversallySpeaking.com Neurodiversally Speaking starts now.

Shawna: 00:01:36

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Neurodiversity Speaking. I'm Shawna Fleming, a BCBA or behavior analyst. Hey, everybody, I'm Britney.

Brittany: 00:01:44

Brittany Clark. Today we're talking about sleep. My favorite thing to talk about. No, I'm kidding.

A topic that comes up very often with the families we work with and honestly in our homes, too. All the time.

Shawna: 00:01:59

Exactly. And I do think, as a parent has changed of our perspectives.

I feel like you probably don't get as many sleep questions as a speech pathologist, but certainly pre children, lots of families talking to me about sleep. And then now that I have my own kids, I'm like, oh, gosh, I have learned so much about being flexible asleep.

And I hope that that is like what comes across in the podcast today. Because as a parent, I remember just feeling like I failed, you know, and like, what am I? What do I do?

Certainly when they were young and I know you had a similar experience with my infant was just, like, googling everything, every. What did they call those leaps?

Brittany: 00:02:37

Yes, yes, yes.

Shawna: 00:02:38

And truthfully, my friend messaged me this morning and was like, when did your youngest. Was he sleeping in your bed a lot? Was he in his own bed a lot? I was like, honestly, I was so tired, I don't even remember in my mind.

He never went through my firstborn went through every leap, and I had, like, all the strategies in place. My second, I was working and didn't take time off work, really. And so I was tired.

Brittany: 00:03:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:03:03

And so I kind of. And, like, you're just, like, more confident, I think, as a parent, too.

Like, when you leave the hospital, they're like, no co sleeping and sort of like, scare you that you're going to fall asleep with the baby. And I don't know, somehow the baby's going to suffocate, so you have all these anxieties.

Brittany: 00:03:17

And that was my second.

Shawna: 00:03:18

I was like, okay, you know what? My first one survived. Yeah, I'm so tired. Yeah. So this is what we're doing. Exactly.

And so in my mind, you just, like, never went through those, like, tough sleep periods. But I think I just responded so differently, too. Yep.

Brittany: 00:03:33

I can say I totally relate. Like, with my first, too, we had a really hard time with sleep. And that's not the purpose of this podcast, but I do have so much empathy.

A mom was sharing with me yesterday, actually, both. I had a couple of sleep conversations with this.

Shawna: 00:03:47

Exactly. It's something all of us are struggling with and chatting about.

Brittany: 00:03:50

And my heart just, like, I get it 100%, because even if it's different, I know, like, sort of the challenges that it can bring. And again, I had a student, and I know I talk about my students sometimes on the podcast, but we love having students in the clinic.

And I said to my student, who was not yet a mother or I don't know if she wants kids anyway, she's not a mother. I said, like, sleep.

You would be surprised, like, how often as a parent, you end up obsessing over sleep or lack of sleep for yourself, for your baby or your child. And, like, that sleep deprivation is like a form of torture.

And I said, like, now I understand it because I've been there and I have been sleep deprived, and it, like, really can affect your mental health and, like, your functioning. And so the mom in the assessment was talking about not sleeping, and I just feel like, oh, my heart is like, there with you. I get it.

And I remember that so.

Shawna: 00:04:42

Well, exactly. Sleep challenges are so common.

Brittany: 00:04:45

Yes.

Shawna: 00:04:47

And then especially for neurodivergent kids. And I think one of the differences that we often see is that with typically developing children, you have sleep concerns.

Maybe like, I don't know, I have a five year old and he's still in my bed at times. So like, maybe into like early middle childhood.

With neurodivergent kids, you might see those younger years are harder than most of the people you're chatting with, and then they might persist longer.

Brittany: 00:05:15

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:05:16

And so it's just a little bit different for neurodivergent children. And we'll go into that a little bit in the podcast today.

Brittany: 00:05:21

Yeah, exactly.

And I was thinking about how sleep can be like one of the first places that parents notice a difference or a challenge sometimes, like you said, like, it could be harder or it lasts longer. And so, you know, parent, as a parent, sometimes you can feel like, judged because of how you're sort of handling things.

And I remember, you know, you talked about late night Googling and I remember doing the same and just like being obsessed over this, almost like trying to fix things and then having no idea. And the world is sort of polarized. If you're googling things, like, you should do this or you should do this.

And like, not everything sort of aligns with your own values and stuff. So it's, it's very challenging. And then you think, how is everyone else, like, functioning so well and I'm not.

And so it can bring a lot of like, internal guilt and feelings for sure.

Shawna: 00:06:09

And I think with young, when you have babies, you hear like, cry it out. Right. And that's what today's episode is about.

No, because I remember both of us have a similar story with that where we tried out the cried out method for about five minutes and then.

Brittany: 00:06:22

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:06:23

But then I remember with my once my youngest or my oldest became like 2ish. I was like, what do you do now? Like, you just need them to cry it out. He's too.

Brittany: 00:06:33

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Shawna: 00:06:35

And so I find there's like, sometimes not as many practical strategies once you move beyond those infancy years. And so what can you do? And like, today is not about judgment or shame or blame.

And I do not have a perfect, I am not a perfect bedtime routine at my house. And I know, I think one of the things I hope will come across today is it's really about getting curious about what matters to you.

Brittany: 00:07:00

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

Shawna: 00:07:02

And what sort of strategies and trial and error of Some different things. So today we're hoping to go through some strategies that have worked for us, things that have worked clinically and some of those resources.

And then also the first step, sort of chatting about why are these sleep challenges happening? And like, how often are they? And I think we've already said they're happening all the time.

Brittany: 00:07:21

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:07:22

You're not alone.

Brittany: 00:07:23

Exactly. I also remember very clearly, I don't know why, but your youngest now, when you were like, well, now he can just get out of his bed.

Shawna: 00:07:31

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:07:31

You know, and it's like, what do I do now? Because he's walking and like talking and, you know, like that it adds layers as they get older too. It's like not just somebody in their crib. Right.

Where they're kind of like, I don't wanna say stuck. Cause that sounds terrible, but like more confined. Whereas, like, oh, now he's walking and they can get up and get in.

And I do think, you know, those are some of the conversations I was having with parents this week too, was like, what do I do when they're just like, like ready in the middle of the night?

And maybe their communication skills aren't in a way that they can like, explain how they're feeling or what's going on in their mind or like, they can't tell you if they had a nightmare or something like that.

Shawna: 00:08:10

Exactly.

And so today what we're going to look into is like, we're not neuroscientists, but we do read and try and keep up on the latest research and sort of understanding.

As a behavior analyst, certainly it's really important that we understand sort of the underlying function or features of a challenge before we start coming up with the next step plan. And so from the research, what we know is 50 to 80% of autistic youth report having sleep difficulties or parents report. And so there's a lot.

Lot of youths, right. That's the majority are having sleep difficulties. And so let's dig into why sleep can be hard from.

Families will often hear that kids are waking up multiple times at night and that some of the kids have a. Usually I'll chat with families about whether does your child have difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep or both, or are they.

Other families I've worked with have had really specific bedtime routines. And if they don't follow that routine, then it's really tricky for the child to go to sleep.

But then parents are worried that if they keep following this routine, are they creating this dependency?

Brittany: 00:09:20

We had a family last week that said, there was, like, the bedtime routine takes like, three hours.

Shawna: 00:09:25

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:09:25

And so in that case, too, it's like, we gotta follow this routine in their minds to, like, make everything go well, but that's just not possible, like, for us as adults to have any sort of, like, how are you doing anything else in your house? Or, like, doing things for yourself? And, like, that's when it can really turn to become a mental health concern for the parent too.

Shawna: 00:09:43

Right, Right. And that's where I really think. Taking that step back and thinking, does this matter to me?

And we'll talk more about that when we get to the strategies. But if it doesn't matter to you, then you're like, commitment to fixing it is probably low. And so I recommend leaving it.

If it is something that matters to you, then we got some strategies for you.

Brittany: 00:10:00

Yeah, for sure.

Shawna: 00:10:02

So with our neurodivergent kids, we know that there's that nervous system difference. Yep. And the brain difference as well. Right. So this higher alertness, slower downshifting, potentially.

So like this at bedtime, for the ones that have difficulty falling asleep, what we might notice is that they are like, their brain really is having a hard time coming down. Right. And having difficulty transitioning from being busy into being calm.

Brittany: 00:10:28

For sure. For sure. And like, we know too that, like, after school commitments or like, sometimes we even have kids come into therapy Right.

Later and like, you're busy, you're having fun, and then you gotta get home, get dinner, and then like, okay, now

Shawna: 00:10:41

get ready for bed.

Brittany: 00:10:41

And that for most people, it's like, hard to kind of wind down. But then with the research show is like, that's even more difficult for some of our neurodiverse learners.

Shawna: 00:10:49

Exactly. And we see it with our own kids. Right.

Like, we were just signing our kids up for soccer and it's late and we're like, oh, gosh, that's gonna be a late night. You know, like, it ends at 8. So we know the kids aren't going to get to bed right away when they come home.

Brittany: 00:11:01

Right.

Shawna: 00:11:01

And then with neurodivergent children, we should sort of expect that that would be more challenging.

Brittany: 00:11:05

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:11:06

So one of the things is that falling asleep is. Can be related to higher alertness and slower downshifting.

But then we also know that there's differences in their ability to stay asleep, which potentially is related to those circadian rhythm differences. And so, again, this is like something that's like, innate in them.

It's not that they want to be up four times in the Night is that there is those nervous system differences, for sure. And then one thing I actually found when I was looking into this research that I thought was very interesting is social jet lag.

Yeah, I've never heard that term.

And so you'll see, like, daytime sleepiness or fatigue potentially, because their brain, I would hypothesize their brain's like, overworking in these social situations because of that social communication difference with neurodivergent individuals. Yeah, that then, yeah, this was a new term to me. But I thought, oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense.

And I, like, myself, will host sometimes my family, like, or my husband's whole family for Christmas.

Brittany: 00:12:02

Yes.

Shawna: 00:12:03

It's a lot of work. I gotta make all. Or not me. They bring food, but you know how it is. You gotta clean your house and make all these different dishes and.

And clean up and all this stuff. And the next day I'm like, so tired. And you know me, I'm very like, go, go. I often have a lot of things on the go. Yeah.

But that for me, I like, the next day I'm just like, zonked. And when I was reading this article, I was like, hey, that actually makes a lot of sense. It doesn't happen to me very often.

Like, this is really one situation I can think of.

Brittany: 00:12:27

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:12:28

Or sometimes if we go visit friends for a weekend or something, when I come home, like, just like, no one talked to me for a while, you know?

Brittany: 00:12:33

Exactly.

Shawna: 00:12:35

And so for neurodivergent people where that social communication is already extra taxing, it makes sen sense to see some of that fatigue there.

Brittany: 00:12:43

Yeah.

The social jet lag term reminds me when we were chatting with Jamie from Autism Canada and how she said, like, she'll go and do these engagements and, like, have a conference or something that she has to do, and then she has to, like, plan that downtime, like, two days after doing it. As a neurodivergent professional, she'll, like, kind of plan her schedule around it and reminds me sort of that social jet lag.

Shawna: 00:13:03

Right.

And so if you're seeing, like, difficulty falling asleep, then we see that difficulty downshifting or increasing alertness where the brain just kind of keeps going.

If you're having trouble seeing staying asleep or your child is then potentially looking at those circadian rhythms, or if you're noting it's sort of like intermittent and it's during the day, then maybe it's worth looking at your schedule and sort of what's going on.

And can we plan something so that we Start school later on Tuesdays, because on Monday nights we go to beavers and do this cool thing, you know, and so that can be, like, some stuff to think about. The next thing that we'll look at is those sensory processing differences. And so sometimes the darkness is scary for most children.

Brittany: 00:13:45

Like my.

Shawna: 00:13:46

Yeah, exactly.

Brittany: 00:13:49

But.

Shawna: 00:13:49

And so because of those sensory processing differences, that scariness might feel a little bit different too. Right? Like a little bit bigger. The emotions are a little bit bigger. And so you might find some supports that are not.

One thing I also want to talk about a lot today is like, sleep crutches. I think, as parents, certainly myself earlier on was, like, so stressed.

Like, I don't want you to need a sound machine for the rest of your life, you know, And I'd like to normalize those, I hope, because they serve a regulatory function potentially. Right. And are not simply a crutch. So you've got music or maybe some lights, weighted blankets.

And some of those things can also help kids stay asleep because they're more regulated.

Brittany: 00:14:33

Yeah, for sure.

Shawna: 00:14:35

Okay, the sort of next category we're going to talk about is those cognitive factors. So, like, what if they. Do they have any, like, anxiety around sleep? Sometimes, again, because of those sensory differences and also those.

What do we call, like, nervous system differences that just the idea of going to sleep is just anxiety inducing on its own. Yeah, you know, it's always terrible. I'm in the room by myself.

Brittany: 00:15:00

By myself. Right, yeah, for sure.

Shawna: 00:15:02

And then they're sort of learning history potentially, which I think could come into the kind of final thing we were chatting about, which is the parental influence. And so, like, what's sort of their learning history with sleeping? What have you guys been doing for a while? What's been working, working?

What's not been working? And not as a shame and blame sort of pathway, but as a way to get curious about, okay, what have we been doing that's really been working?

And what also have I maybe been doing that isn't helping the situation here?

Brittany: 00:15:29

And then you were talking about that, like, bedtime anxiety. And I know with my kids, yours are the same, I think, with most, like, humans at the end of the day, it's sort of like that quiet time that comes.

And, like, sometimes our thoughts can get louder then. And so, like, if I'm worried about something, that's when the worry surface. And then it feels like, okay, I haven't.

Like your example the other day was like, oh, gosh, did I leave the heater on in the office? And then at 2am your brain's like, oh, no, is the office gonna burn down? And I could, like, you know, it

Shawna: 00:15:56

was actually burning down. I was laying in bed. Totally.

Brittany: 00:15:58

And I've, like, been there so many times. And so for all of us as humans, I feel like in. Sometimes around sleep is like when those worries can kind of surface and bubble.

And then, you know, if there's other sort of sensory things going on too, or if you do have, like, you know, more difficulty, like managing anxiety or something. Like found the sleep can be extra challenging.

Shawna: 00:16:18

Exactly, Exactly. All right, so I think one thing that we've talked a lot about is, like, sleep challenges are normal.

Brittany: 00:16:24

Yes.

Shawna: 00:16:25

Or at least something that most of us experience. And so what are some of those sleep expectations across ages? And what. How is that different for our neurodivergent children?

And so we've talked about common patterns for, like, toddlers in early childhood that difficulty falling asleep, you might have frequent night waking or reliance on having the caregiver there. Right. I have lots of friends that lay with their children to fall asleep. And then I myself don't. It's like a firm boundary that I have with my kids.

I am a terrible sleeper. I cannot fall asleep at all. I hate going to bed and have been for many years. So that's my learning history and my. And that's where my.

This one is important to me. I'll tell you all the bad habits my children have as well around sleep.

But one thing that was really important to me is that they fall asleep on their own, not with me, because I suck at falling asleep, and I don't want them to have that. And so when I would go to sleepovers or something, like, I'd be really nervous because I would have to fall asleep alone.

Brittany: 00:17:29

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:17:30

Anyway, so that's like my mentality around it. And so for me, it's really important that my boys fall asleep on their own.

And without me laying beside them, I'll snuggle with them and we read books and stuff. Yeah, but that. So that was the boundary that I drew.

Brittany: 00:17:43

Right.

Shawna: 00:17:44

And so it's normal for kids to, like, you know, want some connection, for sure. And have difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep.

Or if you have in air quotes, crutches or things that you're using that are working, this would be very expected, you know, and this, like, up until. I don't even think beyond this, but I'll say seven years of age, we sort of expect.

Brittany: 00:18:09

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:18:10

And some tools that will be. That are sometimes useful, like music and lights and blankets or co sleeping. And I'll say my family has all three. Yeah, same, same, same.

I like to get my girls like

Brittany: 00:18:22

just almost when they're gonna nod off and then I'll leave the room and they know that like I'm gonna like stay with them until they're really calm and regulated. But then as soon as they're like getting close, I'm out. And I'll be like, mama's got some

Shawna: 00:18:34

big important jobs to do. I always have a lot of jobs in the evening. Always cleaning or working. Yeah, yeah.

Brittany: 00:18:41

And I'll tell them, yeah, this is like, I got some really boring stuff to do too. Like boring adult jobs. I think I learned that from you. Yes. It's not exciting.

Shawna: 00:18:49

Exactly. And then I think as well as you like, get more experience as a parent, you start to normalize these sleeping things.

Brittany: 00:18:56

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:18:57

Sleeping crutches.

Whereas again with my firstborn in those early infant days, I was like overthinking a lot of things and really stuck on this idea, like you have to learn to sleep alone.

Brittany: 00:19:08

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:19:08

You know, it's like, well, he's like three months old. Maybe you could teach him that when he's a little bit older, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so with my, with my kids, one of the rules that we have is like you fall asleep on your own, but if you wake up and you come find me, like, I'll be there for you.

Brittany: 00:19:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:19:25

And then both my boys also come out of their rooms a thousand times before they fall asleep. And we can talk about some strategies around there. Again, doesn't really bother me that much.

So I'm not really doing anything about it because it would require a lot of effort on my end and I'm really lazy at night. I love that in middle childhood. So like the 7 to 12 ish before they reach that adolescence, we might see like bedtime resistance. Right.

Do I have to go to bed? And I think sometimes you have a child that would fall into this category and sometimes she's up pretty late.

Brittany: 00:19:58

Yep.

Shawna: 00:19:59

You know, because the day was off or I don't know, whatever. Yeah.

And so see that bedtime resistance or anxiety based delays, perseveration around things or like awareness of routines changing or being the same.

Brittany: 00:20:13

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:20:14

And then, and then these are like heightened often with neurodivergent children. You might see more resistance or the resistance maybe even looks different.

Brittany: 00:20:23

Oh, totally.

Shawna: 00:20:24

And I was just thinking like in these moments it might be helpful to name it. Hey, are you doing this because you don't want to go to bed. And that way we can come up with a strategy.

Brittany: 00:20:32

Right.

Shawna: 00:20:33

And so you might see that worse. You might see them like, again. In my house, this happens all the time. I need water, I use the bathroom, I need a snack. These, like, delaying tactics.

And like, they could. I. My husband, I often say their oldest is like a mastermind. Like, you know, you go in, like, being like, I'm not going to give him anything.

I'm going to tell him he's got to go to sleep. And then he's like, ask a question. You're like, wow, you know, frogs actually do do this. Why are we talking about frogs? Like, what happened here?

I love that. Yeah.

Brittany: 00:21:04

And I feel like it's very different in my house. My girls don't come out of the rooms, like, ever, actually.

Shawna: 00:21:08

Because you're with them. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So different problem.

Brittany: 00:21:13

And we're like, just dealing with it differently. So for us, like, I get them until they're like, almost asleep, but it means they're not coming out. Cause I think that would drive me crazy.

Shawna: 00:21:21

Right?

Brittany: 00:21:21

Like, if I'm downstairs doing the dishes and then they're like coming down every five minutes, I would go nuts. And so I would rather like, kind of get them to that point. And so all we're like, we're both different in the way we handle sleep.

And what we're trying to say too is that, like, every parent's road is

Shawna: 00:21:34

gonna be a little bit different.

Brittany: 00:21:35

And there's not necessarily like a right or a wrong way. But what we know is, like, there are some things that do work, like some supports.

So, like having you can use like a visual schedule sometimes for the bedtime rout. But even if you don't add in the visuals, just like having a predictable sequence.

And so for both of us, we probably do do that with our kids, whether that involves like a bath or, you know, but certainly there's like washing your face, brushing your teeth, getting your PJs on, you know, all that stuff. But then, you know, every night we're reading a story and we're cuddling and like doing that.

And there's part of like a calm down kind of routine that goes with it.

Shawna: 00:22:12

Right, exactly. And it's that flexibility too. Right. Like sometimes we might try a strategy and it's not really.

And then I want to also connect with them when those strategies are working. Like, hey, that was really awesome that you stayed in bed or whatever. I see you, like, following the twinkling lights on the ceiling. That's awesome.

Yeah. So using those coping strategies are really what we want to give them, like positive praise for.

And then our job as parents really is to set that predictable environment without being too rigid too, like being flexible to changing things that aren't working for some year in the teenage years or 12 plus of course we're seeing some changes.

Brittany: 00:22:52

Puberty starts sometimes even younger than 12,

Shawna: 00:22:56

you know, and so we see those natural changes that happen, like hormonal changes that happen across no matter. Your. Would you say that? I say neurodivergent affiliation, but. But across like typical and atypical development.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll see this no matter. And so we might see like earlier bedtimes or later bedtimes or sleeping in later.

Or you might see that social jet lag probably pop up more because there's more of those social responsibilities.

Brittany: 00:23:26

And masking sometimes in school can be part of it too. And I was also thinking about how like your internal clock kind of changes in those teenage years.

And we'll remember this, all of us from being teenagers, but the routine doesn't change. So even though you want to sleep until 10, school still starts at 8:25.

Shawna: 00:23:43

Exactly.

Brittany: 00:23:43

And so like you're just constantly like kind of on the wrong routine or on the wrong schedule.

Shawna: 00:23:47

Exactly. And then of course, like defiance or some of that. What would you call that back in like negotiation. You might see that increase in those years.

Cuz again, they're getting older too and figuring out this independence and autonomy and where's my place in that? And again, it's not bad behavior. It's actually like a great sign.

Brittany: 00:24:05

Right.

Shawna: 00:24:05

They're trying to advocate for themselves and figure out these boundaries, but it can be frustrating for sure. I think one of the things. So that's like a good overview of sort of what to expect across the sort of childhood lifespan.

And I think when families come in to see me, oftentimes they're saying like their child goes to sleep super late or doesn't stay asleep. And usually my first recommendation is to talk to your doctor.

Brittany: 00:24:30

Yeah, true.

Shawna: 00:24:31

Sometimes melatonin can be a really simple option for individuals that are neurodivergent just to help calm that brain down and help them either fall asleep or stay asleep or both. And so I do recommend checking in with your doctor.

t's a pretty recent stat from: 2024

Because I do think that we see and we see it in the clinic during the day too.

Like the brain differences are there and like in some really cool ways and then some ways that might actually be hindering their ability to get that good sleep that would also really fuel their brain for tomorrow to true. And so I think first step, always chat with your doctor and consider what your thoughts are too. Right.

I've got families that are like, yep, melatonin's for me. And other families are like no, no, I definitely don't want to do that.

Brittany: 00:25:27

Exactly. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:25:28

And so have being informed at least about what your options are. And so along with that there's no like right way to sleep.

Brittany: 00:25:35

You know.

Shawna: 00:25:36

And again this is where I think my perspective has changed a lot as a parent. And just with more experience of life too. Like I've learned obviously in different cultures there's different sleeping setups.

Brittany: 00:25:45

Yeah, I was gonna say too. Yeah, yeah. Like I remember reading about that when I was in these like sort of depths of sleep despair being like, oh okay.

It's actually like so common in non North American cultures to co sleep and like we're, we treat sort of the sleep phenomenon.

Phenomenon is like very different in North America compared to like some other countries and how they co sleep or not or like what their sleep culture is.

Shawna: 00:26:09

Right, exactly. And whereas like here we're always like you gotta sleep alone in your dark room. See there. Yeah. Most other cultures are really not doing that.

Brittany: 00:26:16

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:26:18

And then as a mom or a parent or I don't know, just anyone living life like you need sleep yourself too. And so I often think it's like thinking about what works for our family right now, what's really important to us right now.

And is it that everyone sleeps. Is it that everyone sleeps in their own bed? Right. You know, and depending on your family and your own sleep. Right.

Like I have friends who are also terrible sleepers and some of them have like firm rules like no kids in my bed because then I don't sleep and then I'm a really cranky mom tomorrow.

Brittany: 00:26:45

Right.

Shawna: 00:26:45

And so it's important to me that I hold this boundary and we figure out what. What's going to make sleeping in your room more comfortable for you.

Brittany: 00:26:51

Right.

Shawna: 00:26:52

Okay. From the research, we will upload the research articles into the show notes.

We do know that neurod divergent sleep often benefits from some additional support. Right. I would also say my own children just benefited from the same support. So that auditory input. So playing around with music or white Noise.

And I often joke, like, if you came to my house at three in the morning, you would probably hear little angel like Baba Black Sheep playing. Because if my youngest wakes up in the middle of the night, he cannot come into our bed because he kicks us and punches us and no one sleeps. And.

But he does do really well with music. And it's crazy to me, of course.

Like you wouldn't think listening to the Wheels on the Bus puts you to sleep, but in his case, it like works almost every time and neither one of us have to get out of bed. I can, like, quickly. We have a Google speaker in both of our children's rooms.

I quickly put it on from my phone and then I turn over and go back to sleep. I love it. And so it's not uncommon in my house. If you were to come in in the middle tonight to hear some sort of music playing.

Brittany: 00:27:52

Actually, one thing on the music, I was surprised.

We went away together last summer and our families were together and I think I put one of your boys down for bedtime one night when you went for dinner anyway, and your son was like, put on. And then his name's like, playlist. Bedtime playlist. And I was expecting like, lala.

Shawna: 00:28:09

Bye. Oh, yeah. No, no, it's like, oh, O.

Brittany: 00:28:13

Like I can't even think of one song.

Shawna: 00:28:14

But it was like party time. Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's all full of like his top hits. Yeah. And again, he now just comes into our bed and he sleeps in our bed every night.

Which is another conversation. But he previously to him being a good co sleeper with us again. Yeah, we would just put on like, we will rock you. Yeah, yeah.

Brittany: 00:28:33

We are the champions.

Shawna: 00:28:34

Yeah, I will catch you at eight. And like, again, those are like some hard rules in our house. Like, my kids do not wake up before 8 o', clock, right. On school days.

We are like dragging them out of bed because we like to sleep in on the weekends. Same. And so my kids have never been early risers and people often will ask me, like, well, how did you do?

Like, I don't want my kids to wake up at six. It was truthfully, like never an option for them.

Brittany: 00:28:58

Same.

Shawna: 00:28:58

You know, if it's six o', clock, like, this is still the middle of the night, you're going back to bed. And then in our case we would put on music in their rooms and like, I don't know, just lay in your bed, I come get you.

Brittany: 00:29:10

But I would say we're the same and that's where we really align Too. Especially if we're traveling together or something. Like, my kids. Same. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:29:16

They're not worried.

Brittany: 00:29:17

Like, if. If it's 6am Yeah. I will literally say it is the middle of the night. And like, this is not even 7. Oh, yeah.

Shawna: 00:29:23

Mom. It's bright outside. No, no, it's still sleeping time.

Brittany: 00:29:27

It's just the lights outside. Yeah. And then, you know, I don't think we've talked about it yet, but like, darkness, like curtains and stuff. Stuff too. Like.

Like, what are they called? Blackout curtains and stuff. Is something I lived by when my kids were really little. For sure. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:29:40

I think it can be really helpful. I also have lots of friends who didn't do it and their kids also sleep just fine.

Brittany: 00:29:46

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:29:47

But something to play around with for sure. Is that darkness and that sort of leads into the next one. Is that visual input?

Brittany: 00:29:51

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:29:52

Looking. And again, both my boys have light projectors that project like little galaxies onto the ceiling.

We have ones that are like, controllable by our phone so we can turn it on. Off after a certain period of time. And that way when they're hopefully in like, their deep sleep, it is like, nice and dark. Yeah. Yeah.

But I don't even know if that's important. That's just sort of our own parent mentality. And so that could be something worth trying too. Is getting sort of creative.

Like, I was thinking for my oldest. He doesn't like falling asleep. It's boring. Is.

I thought, oh, at least then you've got, like, kind of something to watch, you know, Like, I taught him to look for, like, shapes in the galaxies. Like, what shapes do you see up there? Kind of like cloud watching.

Brittany: 00:30:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:30:31

So then hopefully, like, kind of keeps his brain busy while he's like, drifting off to sleep.

Brittany: 00:30:35

But it's relaxing and it's like, focused on something rather than thinking about the worries of the day or something. I could use that in my own house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:30:42

And then parent presence is another thing that the research also has supported as being an effective strategy, which makes sense. Okay. So the key message here is, like, sleep should be about everyone's functioning and safety. Y. And not about, like. I think what the Internet.

Brittany: 00:30:58

Internet tells you. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:30:58

It's really important for sleep.

Brittany: 00:31:00

Yeah. It's like, not. There's like, no normal. Really. And like, go with whatever feels good for your family. Safety for sure. And functional for sure.

But, like, make that decision that feels right for your own values.

Shawna: 00:31:10

Yeah. And like, what's important to you. And I think that's like Our next sort of topic here is like, one thing I was really worried about.

Do I have too many crutches?

Brittany: 00:31:17

Right.

Shawna: 00:31:17

I got too many tools here. I gotta fade them out. And certainly as behavior analyst, that's something we talk about often, is like fading out support. Yep. And then for myself.

Right. Like, I also have a unhealthy sleep regime that I do before bed. And I know what I would have to do to change it.

I'm not willing to put in the work to change it. And so it's just like, not a goal for me. I just know I have a really crappy sleep setup.

Brittany: 00:31:41

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:31:41

You know, but it's what works for me and I don't want to change it. And so when I go to the doctor, she's like, you know, you could try this. I'm like, I hear you.

Brittany: 00:31:48

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:31:49

I'm just like, not there. I'm not ready to make the behavior change myself, so I'm gonna leave it.

And I think as a parent, if you feel like, you know what, this doesn't really matter to me, then maybe just leave it.

Brittany: 00:31:59

Yeah. Right.

Shawna: 00:32:00

And so a common parent worry is, are they getting dependent on this?

Brittany: 00:32:04

Did I.

Shawna: 00:32:05

They used to sleep on their own, but now they're not. And we know, like, child development is not linear. And so things that they once did, you know, as they.

And I see this a lot with my 5 year old is like, he's learning how the world works more and more. And so things that he used to do, he's like, not doing or he like, it's not that he's regressing, crossing.

Or my husband would say that maybe I was like, oh, he used to go to sleep all by himself, you know, and now he's not. Like, he is like, learning really bad habits. Like, well, actually he's just learned that he can tell us he needs to go to the bathroom.

And that works. Like, we're never gonna say, no, go to the bathroom.

And so I think it's not that we're undoing progress, is that we're in like a different phase of life, you know, like, they've changed and I've changed, changed. And maybe our sleep routine has changed in general, like our bedtime routine or life commitments, etc.

Brittany: 00:32:53

Y.

Shawna: 00:32:53

And so let's like, adapt to this new reality we're living in. Yeah.

Brittany: 00:32:56

And I think like, sickness can also really change your sleep routines too.

Like, we both will say, like, well, they were sick and so of course they're like, sleeping with us or like, they'll come into our beds because they had, we wanted to monitor them.

They were like throwing up or, you know, just like, if someone was sick, then often, like those routines change and sometimes it can be harder to like, kind of move out of that phase, I think too.

And like, I don't know, you and I probably just tell each other like it's a phase and like it will eventually sort of write itself if it's important or whatever. Like, you know, they're still sleeping with you two weeks after being sick.

Well, you know, if it's not bothering anybody, then let's just all like sleep and be safe for sure.

Shawna: 00:33:32

And like, I think the other thing is not to catastrophize like so far in the future either. Yeah, they're never going to sleep alone. I know. Yeah.

And like when my friend messaged me this morning, she has a infant and then she was asking me about my 3 year old and I was like, well, you know what? Like, he does sleep in his own bed now, so. Yeah, how we got there. But you know, don't stress too much. Like, you'll get there too.

Brittany: 00:33:54

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:33:55

And so tools are great. They can be a problem if they're causing like some sort of distress, of course, like, then switch it up. Don't use that tool.

Probably not the right one. If they're really rigid, sometimes that can be problematic. And certainly with neurodivergent kids with. We might see that.

And then I wouldn't even say like potentially removing the tool altogether. It just might be worth it to work on some flexibility. Like, let's do.

I don't know, I can't even think of really a problem with like a light thing or like they only want to listen to one song. That just like wouldn't matter to me. Go ahead. And my youngest listened to Mortimer by Robert Munch on repeat last night until he fell asleep.

I can't even tell you how many times he listened to. Yeah, or if they stop working, of course, then like evaluate and pivot bit. And then I would think about like, are they sleeping?

Are they regulated through the day? And how's our family doing with like this setup? And if that's all like, kind of good, then maybe just like keep going and don't stress now.

And like, I always think like, as the kids get older they have like such a better understanding of how the world works and why things are important.

So I'll have a conversation with them in the future about like, you know, sometimes you might go for a sleepover and like, you want to be Able to fall asleep on your own. Like what are some of the strategies you can use and that sort of stuff. Stuff versus like thinking about taking the tools out now.

Brittany: 00:35:05

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Shawna: 00:35:07

All right, so some practical strategies. We've talked a lot about music, which is a big one in my house, and I know you guys use some like podcasts and audiobooks. Yeah.

Some success with those.

Brittany: 00:35:18

Yeah, we found some really nice ones actually recently where it's like a really beautiful woman's voice and she's very soothing and calming and like she tells these little stories and my eldest actually loves it. And so now like more often than not she's listening to that to kind of like I'll get her pretty sleepy.

And then I'll say like, do you want your koala moon? It's called do you want your koala moon?

Shawna: 00:35:38

Podcast?

Brittany: 00:35:38

And she'll say, yeah, and I'll put that on. And then again I can control it from my phone. And she's got a speaker in her room too.

Shawna: 00:35:42

Yeah, nice. We also use those a lot. My boys do not like the calming. Like Levi will say, yes, it's boring, refuse to listen to it.

But they he's very into or he, I would say his interests change all the time. But like if he's interested in Pokemon, then we'll find a Pokemon bedtime story. There is so much stuff. We have Spotify and you guys use Apple. Yep.

And neither one of us have problems finding like kid friendly podcasts. There's one playlist on Spotify called Please, please sleep and it has like Vampirina, it has Disney ones, it has Bluey, like so many different ones.

Anyway, so I would say play around with some music and then again, I don't know, I feel, feel no shame about playing the wheels on the bus at three in the morning.

And so if that works for you, I wouldn't, I would say try it out, you know, and then let's worry about fading that out in the future because night wakings are like, don't have to be an all time thing. And then you might find that that in combination with melatonin or something is a nice strategy.

And then you're able to fade out the audio in the middle of the night because now the melatonin is working and they're sleeping through the night. Right. And so I would say don't shy away from music or audio light supports. We've also talked about one thing.

I would give some suggestion around the light support beyond the projectors is we have a hatch light or Actually we have three hatch lights and my family is obsessed. And those are little lights that you can put in their room and you can control them from your phone.

And so you can have like we have it red when it's sleeping time and then green when it's. It's okay to wake up. Right. And that's worked really well to train both of my kids. And something I often recommend to parents.

And you'd be surprised like even if you thought your kid couldn't understand that, if you thought, oh, they're too young or they don't have the language to understand this, I would challenge that because even when my children were quite young we use that and they knew if it was red that it was sleep time and if it was green it was wake up time.

Brittany: 00:37:41

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:37:41

And so I think those visuals tools can be quite useful if you have early wakers or middle of the night wakers to just learn like how to also put themselves back to sleep if that's something that's important to you.

Brittany: 00:37:54

And it's really simple, binary sort of green or red or maybe, I don't

Shawna: 00:37:58

know, it's not actually. You could have every color in the

Brittany: 00:38:00

world but you set it up like,

Shawna: 00:38:02

so that it's like pretty simple.

Brittany: 00:38:03

And when they're really little it's like, okay, this means this and this means this. And it's like reinforced that way. Way.

Shawna: 00:38:08

Right.

Brittany: 00:38:08

Like it's like consistent.

Shawna: 00:38:10

Yeah, exactly. We would do like rainbow when they were falling asleep.

Brittany: 00:38:13

So again give them something to look at.

Shawna: 00:38:14

And then it's always changing colors. And then it also makes like white noise or you can have it.

Brittany: 00:38:17

Yeah, right.

Shawna: 00:38:18

Whatever you want. And then it would turn over to red. I don't know, say 9:00pm yeah. And then it would turn green at 8 or whatever.

Brittany: 00:38:26

Right.

Shawna: 00:38:27

And so I do recommend that. And then to train that or like to teach that to your child, you do have to commit, like you've got to be really consistent.

I hear from a lot of people like, oh, it's, it didn't work. I would say the strategy itself works. Maybe it's not the best one for your household. And again it takes that consistency.

And so I like I said to you, waking up early is just like a non negotiable at my house. And so we're really consistent for a week. Like no, it's still rat. And like drawing his attention to like it's red.

It's time to go back to sleep and like bringing him back to his room at that time and that consistency over time Is what's really going to make the tool work. The tool's not going to be inherently working.

Brittany: 00:39:04

Yeah, we used some things similar but again we sort of abandoned it quickly because it wasn't developmentally appropriate for my daughter. We had like a grow clock or something.

Shawna: 00:39:12

Oh, I had one of those too. I didn't like it as much. I find the hatches like cleaner.

Brittany: 00:39:15

Yeah, it was too complex. There was like too much going on and she didn't really learn like what this meant.

And then we ended up putting, just as she was learning to tell time, we put in a clock in her room, like a digital clock. And again, I feel like that one wasn't very good either though. Cause she was, was just like, I don't know, like it's hard, it's so abstract.

Like is 5am Like a good time? Or she'd see the 5 and sometimes it was at the beginning and sometimes it was at the end and she's

Shawna: 00:39:38

like, is this like it was too complicated? Yeah. You know, so even for like a

Brittany: 00:39:41

school age, early school age child like clock itself and be like she couldn't just. I couldn't say like after 8 then

Shawna: 00:39:47

we wake up or whatever.

Brittany: 00:39:48

It was like way too complex because where is that eight in the sequence?

Shawna: 00:39:51

Do you know what I mean?

Brittany: 00:39:52

Yeah, it was very challenging that all

Shawna: 00:39:53

the time at my house too.

Brittany: 00:39:54

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:39:55

If he tells me me the time, I like that it's not the time but he thinks he told me it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking if you had. Is it an analog clock? Which one's the one with the hands?

Brittany: 00:40:04

Yeah, analog.

Shawna: 00:40:05

No, I think that's a river anyway, if you have a clock with hands. Yes, yes. I was think you could put like stickers on potentially as a visual if you don't want to buy something new.

Like the hatch lights are pretty expensive. They're probably $100 each and so. And then same with the grow lights. I haven't seen the latest.

I'd be surprised really if they don't have a newer version out than what I've seen. But they're quite pricey too.

And so you could try some like strategies if you already have a clock and see if you could put like a visual above to show like what should be on the clock to get out of bed.

But I would also say it's like all lot about you being really consistent for the first couple weeks at the very least because like you said it's not going to be inherent, like easy for them to pick it up. But I Find the color system is super easy. Green, I go red, I sleep.

Brittany: 00:40:56

Yeah, exactly. We did actually what you're talking about, that we did put stickers on my daughter's analog. I think that's right.

Shawna: 00:41:02

Because it's not digital.

Brittany: 00:41:03

She has a digital analog.

Shawna: 00:41:04

Yes, yes. Okay.

Brittany: 00:41:05

So yeah, so she has like the kind with the hands analog clock on her wall and we put some like star stickers on it. But then again it was like, well, which hand is so on? And then like, oh, it's too dark in her room. She actually can't see that clock.

And I was like, so, you know, again. And then my whole point here is like trial and error. Like some things you'll try and it might be right for you or not.

We could have probably been more consistent with that and figured something out. But I just knew it was like, oh, it's just like not gonna work. Cause it's too dark or something like that. So. Yeah, yeah. And then.

Shawna: 00:41:34

And not worth persistence on your end, it sounds like. As well. Like you're like, ah, I don't know. This didn't really work. I'm happy to leave it. Yeah, it was too complex for everybody.

Brittany: 00:41:41

So then we just abandoned it.

Shawna: 00:41:43

Right, right, right. Okay. And then bedtime routine. So keeping that sequence really consistent, the order usually matters sometimes adding in visual supports.

Do you guys have a visual schedule going in for a bedtime? Oh, we actually don't.

Brittany: 00:41:55

Well, I would have if I thought it would be helpful though, because we are all about visuals in my house.

Shawna: 00:41:59

But no, like, my kids kind of

Brittany: 00:42:01

know the routine and like they don't. But I could see it being very beneficial, especially in other families for sure.

Shawna: 00:42:07

And then sometimes I'll play around with the timing. At my house, I just changed the boys bedtime by an hour because they were having such a hard time getting them to go to bed around 7. Ish. Yeah.

And so I've just pushed it to 8 and things have gone much easier lately. So being flexible sort of around when they're going to bed.

But again, I think that comes down to parent preference and your own thoughts around sleep too. And then also your knowledge of your child. Like, I find my kids are kind of fine if they don't get a great sleep for a night.

We can make up for it in the future. Or like they might be kind of grumpy the next day or maybe overly not overly sensitive. That's not kind. They might be more sensitive than usual. Sure.

Brittany: 00:42:45

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:42:46

But otherwise I find like, we can get through the day just fine. Whereas I have friends that would say that like that's not like the day is like not survivable by the family if this child doesn't get good sleep.

And so for me, like a strict bedtime is not important, but I can appreciate why for some families that would be really important. And so sort of deciding on what are your non negotiable balls. And then with the bedtime routine, what are some like.

I think one of the things that I love to conceptualize bedtime as is like it's the worst time for kids, right. They're about to go into a space and just be alone and it doesn't have a lot of connection.

And so what can we add into our bedtime routine to make sure that we're connecting and sort of filling those buckets? For sure.

Brittany: 00:43:25

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:43:27

All right. I've got a couple like sort of quick strategies I was going to share that I'll often sort of low recommend to families.

So the first thing I was gonna say, if anyone's a clinician, Greg Hanley has a really great free sleep questionnaire that you can find on the Internet or we'll link it in our show notes.

And I use that as a guide to get kind of curious about their bedtime routines and sort of get some more information about their own like the parents thoughts around what's like really important to them and what's not. It's a functional analysis for the fellow behavior analysts out there interview.

And so it gives you like some guides to sort of chat with family through.

So I do recommend doing doing that first if you're working with a family and supporting sleep is to do an interview and kind of figure out more like where should we get started in.

Brittany: 00:44:12

Right.

Shawna: 00:44:14

And then once you've done that, some of my other sort of quick strategies and I've done both of these at my own house. Our bedtime passes are like a really nice one. Have you guys done that at your house?

Brittany: 00:44:24

No, we haven't done them, but yeah.

Shawna: 00:44:27

Okay. I am considering doing it with my oldest.

Brittany: 00:44:31

Right.

Shawna: 00:44:32

But I'm like, I can't decide how much I care about it. I did do it actually. Not that bedtime passes, but the same idea with screen time for him.

So with bedtime passes, the idea is they get so many passes a night and you can make them out of anything. For the screen time we use like little tokens and so you can use these tokens any time to get out of your bed for free.

Brittany: 00:44:54

Ah, see, that's why it's not an issue in my house because we just sleep, right? Yes, they're almost asleep by the time we leave.

But okay, so if I didn't do that and if I was more like you and like I'm doing the dishes and they're coming down all the time, then I want to use these bedtime

Shawna: 00:45:06

passes exactly like older kids do.

Brittany: 00:45:08

These are not like for 18 months olds, obviously, or like yeah, I would

Shawna: 00:45:11

do with my three year old potentially.

Brittany: 00:45:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:45:13

Or like try it out. But yes, they need to understand this idea of. Well, because you'll see the biggest thing is that.

So you've got so many bedtime passes if you come out. And I like this because it's respectful to their autonomy. Right. So you get to choose and as a parent you get to set the the limit.

Initially you'll set the limit high. Y so you might start with four bedtime passes and then over time you're going to decrease them.

Y so I'm going to start with four and say, okay, you can come out of your room four times, right.

Brittany: 00:45:42

And it's fine and mommy will get your water, I'll get your water, take you to the bathroom, whatever.

Shawna: 00:45:46

Yeah, whatever. Y But if you only come out of your room three times and you have one pass left over in the morning then.

And I did this last weekend with him, I made him a unicorn pancakes. And so he's very excited about that.

And so in his case I actually gave him no passes and told him he needed to stay in his room last weekend and he did. And then in the morning I did the thing, I made him the unicorn pancakes.

Brittany: 00:46:14

Nice.

Shawna: 00:46:14

And so with the bedtime passes, you sort of give them more than you think they'll need initially so that they are successful and then start systematically working backwards to sort of your desired times. And then you time some sort of like contingent reinforcer on this, you know, if you do this because for me I want to just sit and read.

I don't want to be interrupted every five minutes with you coming out of your room. It's important to me. But you don't care. You're happy to bother me because you don't want to go to sleep. Right.

So we have different values in this situation. And so I'm adding in a motivator, you know, which one do you need more? You need that water more or you want those unicorn pancakes more? Right, right.

And it helps him understand too. Like I can't just, I gotta to make thoughtful decisions like this is an important life skill.

I can't just like, keep accessing reinforcement or like, I can't just keep coming out of my room. Sleep is important. I gotta make some decisions. And some days that decision might be to come and snuggle with me on the couch. Right.

And he might say, I'm happy to give up my bedtime pass.

Brittany: 00:47:09

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:47:10

I don't. I need my mama.

Brittany: 00:47:11

Right?

Shawna: 00:47:11

Yeah. Right. And that would be great. I want you to do that. Right. And like, who cares about unicorn pancakes?

Brittany: 00:47:16

Really Great.

Shawna: 00:47:18

So that would be one. One thing. And now the other thing is if it's consistently not working, then I would think, like, what I'm offering you is not enough.

Brittany: 00:47:24

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:47:25

You know, unicorn pancakes are not worth it for you. All right, I gotta up my auntie. Or, like, think about something different. Maybe not up the auntie's not even the right word.

Like, I don't need to take you to Disney World.

Brittany: 00:47:34

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:47:35

But I gotta think about something else. All right, you know what? We are gonna make those, like, marshmallow cookies that you found that you've been dying to make.

You know, like, let's see if we can do something. And I love tying it with things that we're doing together.

Brittany: 00:47:45

Yeah. Y.

Shawna: 00:47:46

So bedtime passes can be a really nice thing if you Google it. I'm sure there's like tons of just like simple parent ideas.

Brittany: 00:47:51

Right.

Shawna: 00:47:51

About that one. And then my other one that I really like is behavior contracts. I think we'll probably do a whole episode on these because they are quite nuanced.

But the idea is that we set this goal together. Right. And so at the beginning of the podcast, we talked about naming the feeling.

So like, are you doing this cuz you're feeling a bit like you don't really want to go to sleep. Know? And so once you've done that part, that's the first part of entering into a behavior contract.

And so I did this recently with my 5 year old and I. We set the expectations ahead of time. So with the behavior contract, you kind of talk about the problem. Here's why it's a problem for me.

Here's why it's a problem for you.

Brittany: 00:48:27

And talk about your values. Yeah, a little bit.

Shawna: 00:48:29

Right. It's a problem for me because this is my time to relax. Mama works all day and then I come home and take care of you guys.

I like to relax for a little bit, but before bed. So it's really important to me. Or I've got all these important adult jobs to do. Yeah.

And then it's really important for you because it's really important that your brain gets sleep.

Brittany: 00:48:45

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:48:46

You know, that's what makes you the best dude tomorrow.

Brittany: 00:48:48

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:48:48

And so I'll be talking about that and then I'll say, like, I don't want to argue with you. You know, last night when you went to bed, I felt really frustrated by the time you actually fell asleep.

You know, and then you probably felt this other way too. So let's come up with a solution together. That's sort of the idea there. And then we're going to come up with. With what's a plan? All right.

You don't really want to go to sleep. I get that. I feel you. But we have to sleep. And so what can we do to make this better for you? Right. And then we come up with a plan together. Great.

And then sometimes I'll put in again a reinforcer there. Like if we can follow this plan, then you can have like 10 extra minutes of screen time tomorrow. I don't know, whatever. And then we both signed it.

And that's like a key thing. They feel like it's really binding. You both sign it. And then I keep it up for display as well.

So like, as a reminder, like, hey, remember in the first couple days, I'm going to, to like, keep reminding him about this like, deal that we came to together.

Brittany: 00:49:40

Cool. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:49:41

So I highly recommend that as another strategy to try out.

Brittany: 00:49:44

Yeah, I can't wait to dive into that one a little bit deeper and like, see how you use that in

Shawna: 00:49:47

other context as well, outside of sleep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very useful strategy and I think a really nice one that builds that autonomy and idea of self advocacy as well.

Brittany: 00:49:56

Right.

Shawna: 00:49:56

All right. So those are some hopefully, like, good strategies.

And I hope that the me or the message that we've shared today is that sleep plans should be flexible, that emotional safety is important, independence can come later.

And really thinking about, like, what matters to you and what's really important, not what do you feel that you need to change because you're worried that your child will never sleep alone. Right. You know, and that could look like music, lights and Coco melon playing at 3am Exactly.

Brittany: 00:50:31

And that we, we totally get it.

Shawna: 00:50:33

And we love, love having these conversations

Brittany: 00:50:34

with parents and we have such a big heart and empathy for when you are going through those sleep hurdles and challenges and that, you know, every child is really unique and different and we're here to like, listen to that story.

Shawna: 00:50:45

Exactly.

And if you have a neurodivergent child, sleep is often something that families are struggling with I and like we've said we have neurotypical children and struggle with sleep ourselves in different seasons and phases of life and so if you're having difficulty I would reach out to someone and get an outside perspective to help you maybe have these conversations so you've got someone else to share your ideas and your struggles with and then they can also offer that professional insight and input on what you can do moving forward.

Brittany: 00:51:13

Yeah, exactly.

Shawna: 00:51:14

All right. Thanks everyone for listening.

Brittany: 00:51:16

Thank you and hope you get a good sleep tonight. Before we go, we want to remind our listeners that topics we discuss in the podcast we are not a replacement for professional medical advice.

Please contact a professional if you have questions.

Shawna: 00:51:29

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences. We'll also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

Brittany: 00:51:42

See you next time.

Shawna: 00:51:43

Bye.