Smooth Sailing: Navigating Transitions with Confidence

Shawna: 00:00:00

One intervention we're doing right now for a girl that's really struggling to transition. So it's like compassionate ABA where we're like, taking neuroaffirming principles and kind of looking at things from their point of view.

And I try to do that as a parent, too. Set them up for success, not stress.

Brittany: 00:00:15

Love that. That should be your tagline. Thank you. Hey, everyone, I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

Shawna: 00:00:22

And I'm Shawna, behavior analyst.

Brittany: 00:00:24

And we're your hosts at Neurodiversally Speaking.

Shawna: 00:00:26

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through lens of speech and behavior.

Brittany: 00:00:33

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Shawna: 00:00:39

Let's get started.

Narrator: 00:00:40

Welcome to the Neurodiversally Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shawna Fleming from lmno, brought to you by the Sensory Supply.

While we aim to make neurodiversity speaking suitable for all audiences, mature subject matter can sometimes be discussed suitable only for those over the age of 18.

If you're under the age of 18, please talk to your parent or guardian before before listening to our show or listen together with him to stay up to date on new episode releases and show updates. Connect with us on Instagram @neurodiversallyspeaking.

You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at hello@neurodiversallyspeaking.com neurodiversally speaking starts now.

Brittany: 00:01:28

Welcome back to Neurodiversely Speaking, the podcast where we explore communication, behavior, and neurodiversity with curiosity and heart. I'm Brittany A speech Path.

Shawna: 00:01:38

And I'm Shauna, behavior analyst. Today, we're talking about something that comes up frequently with families, certainly when we're collaborating with school staff.

The transitions from, like, leaving the park, changing classrooms, wrapping up their favorite show. Transitioning can definitely feel like a big mountain for some of our neurodivergent learners and their families.

And today we want to talk about why are transitions so tough and how can we support them?

Brittany: 00:02:06

For sure, these moments aren't just hard because of what's happening externally or like on the outside. They're hard because they are. We're requiring so much of our kids.

We are asking them to shift their attention, regulate their emotions, understand what's coming next, and let go of something really cool or something they love. And that's a big ask.

Shawna: 00:02:25

Yes, exactly. And today we're hoping to help reframe transitioning challenges.

Um, so that you can take a more proactive or solution focused approach, moving away from managing behavior and working towards understanding what's going on and why this is such a big skill.

We want to talk about what makes transitions tough, what the research says of course, and how we can support those smoother transitions in real life, whether that's at home, school or in the clinic. And certainly as moms, Brittany and I, we often. Right. We have those transition challenges for sure.

Um, we're also going to share those tips that we use in our own homes with our own little ones. And we've got some funny stories about things that have worked at the clinic too.

Brittany: 00:03:06

Yeah, exactly. So as always, we'll share some learning objectives for the episode today.

The first one, learners will be able to understand why transitions are so challenging for many children and also specifically for our autistic and neurodiverse learners. Second is you'll be able to explore evidence based strategies for easing transitions, including visual schedules, choice making and co regulation.

And then sometimes when those are challenging too, we'll talk about it.

And then number three is you'll be able to apply this strategies that we use at home, in the clinic and some from our transitions toolkit into your own home or therapy session to support those smooth transitions through connection. So let's start by talking about why transitions are so hard. And I want to kind of go beneath the surface here.

Transitions challenge a lot of systems at once. So things like executive functioning, self regulation, language processing and emotion regulation or emotional control.

And so just like I alluded to earlier, like that's a lot as complex as, especially when we as the adult are asking for like them to shift quickly or unexpectedly or unpredictably. Absolutely.

Shawna: 00:04:14

And looking at like neurodiverse children in particular autistic children, the DSM 5 even lists that. Right. That that's gonna be tricky for them. Difficulties with transitions, insistence on seamless as one of the like key features of autism.

But this isn't about being defiant or non compliant. What we wanna instead think about is, is what's their past learning history?

So what have things kind of look like at home for the last little bit and then what are the current environmental conditions that might be coming together to interact and sort of make this transition challenging. And so when we see maladaptive behavior, and by maladaptive I just mean something that's not kind of helpful in this environment.

Could be a tantrum, could be crying, could be screaming, could be something simple like asking for 12 glasses of water before bed. It's not usually about the person trying to be difficult. Right. There's just like a lot of other factors that we want to think about.

And I'm really excited to chat about that today.

Brittany: 00:05:11

Yeah, exactly. And so like, you were just saying, like, this is a skill that we need to work on or to teach.

And like most things, like if the child is having a really hard time, you want to think about it, like, hey, I actually want to use this as a learning opportunity. And so the skill that we want to work on then is like, this not being able to transition smoothly between activities.

And then we as the parent or the clinician, we need to support our learners through this.

So we see this clinically, like we said, and we see it at home, of course, and most of our listeners, I'm sure you've had this experience where transitioning from something, you know, moving like even to from just like at bedtime, you know, you're playing and then you got to go brush your teeth, your child's probably having a hard time with that or stepping away from like a preferred movie to go to school, like, that's going to be tricky. And those of course can lead to like, big behavior sometimes. And like, for good reason. Right.

We're moving from something really cool or we're removing reinforcement and then replacing it with something that potentially is like, very effortful or there's a delay to more reinforcement.

Shawna: 00:06:13

Yeah, exactly. One of my favorite researchers currently is Greg Hanley.

g a little bit older now from: 2016

I have read this article so many times, but never had to say it out loud. And figuring out the last name sometimes on the spot is a bit tricky. Jessel Hanley and Gamma Gammy.

Brittany: 00:06:45

I want to say Gaga Mommy.

Shawna: 00:06:47

Gaga Mommy.

Brittany: 00:06:48

I want to say perfect.

Shawna: 00:06:49

Hopefully we'll put it in the show notes. Yes, most definitely describes transitions as. So they're looking at transitions as context shifts.

So particularly from rich reinforcement conditions, so like playing your favorite activity, playing on a tablet maybe to leaner conditions like more structured tasks or going to bed. So something that's like less preferred.

And then the second thing that they were looking at is reframe, reframing what we might call like dawdling or pausing. And instead of looking at as non compliance, looking at as shaped behavior.

So learned behavior that functions to delay the onset of an aversive Context. It's essentially a behavioral slowdown that buys more access to preferred conditions.

Brittany: 00:07:39

Okay, I need to pause up there. I feel like that was very good. And I love Hanley and everything you shared about Hanley's research with me.

I feel like it's always looking at our learners with such compassion.

Shawna: 00:07:50

Yes.

Brittany: 00:07:51

Which I love. But I want to pause and see.

Like, for a lot of our listeners, it was a lot of terms that may be new, like, even rich and lean reinforcement conditions. So that's not necessarily something that I talk about every day or that I use myself.

And so here we're talking about rich reinforcement being, like, heavier and then, like, more enjoyable tasks.

Shawna: 00:08:11

Yeah, good question. In behavioral terms, a rich condition is one where there's frequent or, like, really powerful reinforcement and again, reinforcements, quite complex.

As a behavior analyst, there's a lot of layers there.

Brittany: 00:08:23

Right.

Shawna: 00:08:24

Whereas I think as, like, general population, we think of reinforcement as, like, a good job or a sticker or something. But what I'm talking about are things that your child loves where they're getting a lot of satisfaction, fun, or autonomy.

And then the opposite, there being a lean condition where there's, like, fewer, less preferred reinforcers. It might involve, like, a lot of effort, or you're asking them to do something that they don't really like to do and they're less motivated by.

I'm thinking of a client we have at the clinic right now. She really enjoys those, like, gem art pieces where you, like, put those little gems on. It's so time consuming.

And so for her, she's, like, very focused, very persistent with this task. Could do it for, like, 20, 30 minute, maybe longer, you know, so it's not about, like, in my.

To me, that seems like a lot of effort to make this art thing. Right. And I would really not. That would not be reinforcing to me. Just didn't do that. Whereas for her, it is. Right.

And then when we switch over, we're like, okay, let's do some math work. That's, like, really tricky. For her, it doesn't come naturally, you know, like, it takes a lot of brain power.

And in that, she also has to stay focused and persist. Right. So it's like, she does have. It's not that she can't stay focused and, like, work for long periods of time. It's, like, about the task itself.

And so for her, the rich reinforcement environment could be doing these, like, gem art activities. And then a really lean one is when in her therapy sessions, we're trying to work on, like, a Math word problems, for example.

Brittany: 00:10:00

Right, exactly. And then bringing it into like examples from our own lives. I know your son, like, loves Lego building. My daughter does too.

And so if we're like leaving Lego building to go brush teeth, that would be an example of like moving from rich to lean.

Shawna: 00:10:16

Exactly, exactly. And then when we, when that shift happens, sometimes we'll see behaviors like stalling or refusing to transition, dawdling.

And so what Jessel and his colleagues found is that what we sometimes call dawdling isn't necessarily or, and shouldn't be framed as defiance.

And I think as a behavior analyst, it's like something I find very powerful is they're not blaming the child or kind of looking at what's going on around the behavior, is they're saying this is a learned behavior that serves a function for them. And so they've reframed pausing as this slowdown that delays the transition into the leaner context.

Brittany: 00:10:57

Okay. I feel like it's so, it makes so much sense, but we're using these like kind of tricky terms.

Shawna: 00:11:06

Right.

Brittany: 00:11:07

And so what we're saying essentially is it's a way for a child to like this pausing is a way for a child to hold onto the good thing a little bit longer.

Shawna: 00:11:14

Exactly, exactly that.

And that it's learned something they are getting, they're learning over time, not like a part of their personality that's like forever going to be the case. Right.

And so when that pause is negatively reinforced, meaning the pause leads to the removal or delay of that transition like a demand or like any sort of non preferred transition, then it becomes more likely to happen again. So my son loves to talk at bedtime. He'll have a lot of questions for me. And I've reinforced that. Right.

I've let him know I'm here for the conversation and I've answered his questions. And so I've been reinforcing that. So he learned that that worked.

During the day when he's playing with his Lego, he doesn't ask me one question about my day. Right. But then at bedtime he's learned that that works to kind of keep me in the room longer.

And therefore it happens like kind of every time I put him to bed, of course. And whereas with my, when my husband puts him to bed, very different experience, they doesn't have 100 questions to get out the.

And so again, just different learning histories with each of us. And so if every time the child is pausing before leaving the park and the adult gives them those few extra minutes to play or Delays the transition.

Then the pause served its function. Right. It helps the child avoid or delay that non preferred activity. And then over time, the pause becomes this learned behavior.

Brittany: 00:12:42

Got it.

Shawna: 00:12:43

And so it becomes kind of part of their transitional routine. And I think as parents, this can be really. And clinicians and teachers.

Yeah, this can be really powerful because we realize that we actually have a role that we've played in developing this behavior, a pattern. Right. And then we can change it if we want to. Right. Like, I'm not, I. I don't mind that my son asked me 10 questions before I go.

And so I'm not really looking to change that. I'm just aware of it. And then I'm not like frustrated with him for asking me 10 questions before bedtime. Like, I've set up that routine with him.

Brittany: 00:13:14

Really?

Shawna: 00:13:15

And it works. Works.

Brittany: 00:13:16

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:13:17

And so children can learn. If I hesitate here, I get more time doing what I like or I don't have to go right away.

And so this is like the classic negative reinforcement with the removal or postponement of that transition.

Brittany: 00:13:33

Okay, got it. So I do like the reframe though. And I think again, I've learned this from you, like from some of the Hanley articles.

And in this case, and I know it's Jessel and Hanley and yeah, mommy, but it's the reframe here being like, it's not that the child's being stubborn or difficult or a bad kid. And you know, if we give in sometimes, like, they're just learning that we're likely to give in again and again.

It's not even something like, it's like they're being manipulative. It's like they're like intentionally going, oh, they're not like planning this in their mind. I'm gonna ask mom 10 times tonight, I don't think.

You know, of course, like, like you. We stay up later ourselves, you know, and it's like delaying our own bedtimes.

Shawna: 00:14:13

Ex.

Brittany: 00:14:14

Exactly.

Shawna: 00:14:14

Exactly. And again, we get reinforced. Right. Like that immediate reinforcement of scrolling Instagram at night or whatever. Right.

And then unfortunately, the consequence of staying up late, you don't experience until in the morning.

Brittany: 00:14:29

Yes.

Shawna: 00:14:29

And so you're getting that immediate reinforcement. And that's where we keep doing kind of these like maladaptive behaviors to bedtime.

Brittany: 00:14:36

Right.

Shawna: 00:14:36

Anyways, yes, I do love the reframe. And it's something I'm like so passionate about as a behavior analyst for myself too. Like in this example. Right.

It's like once we are able to see that we have some control over these learned behaviors. It's so much more empowering. Right?

And so to say, like, I'm looking at the environment, I'm looking at their learning history and seeing kind of how we got here. How do we get into this pattern of terrible transitions? If that's the pattern that I'm in, Right. Then it really changes how we respond.

And so instead of focusing on compliance, we can take a step back and ask, what's their history here? Like, what have we been doing? Where have they maybe been getting reinforced? What's the child trying to access or avoid?

Why is this transition so tricky?

Brittany: 00:15:18

Right.

Shawna: 00:15:19

And that gives us a lot more information to work with as clinicians and caregivers.

I think when we sit back and look at things from the child's point of view, it really helps us reframe and understand why the behavior is happening, which can then help us figure out the next step. Instead of blaming the child or punishing them and, like, yelling or something like that, we're able to kind of take the.

Their view of the situation totally.

Brittany: 00:15:43

I like that. And like, for them, that delay just gets reinforced over time, like you're saying.

Or like, if stalling in the clinic leads to, like, shorter work time or less demands, then, like, that's just gonna continue. And it's not like, again, it's not like they're being manipulative or bad.

And so today we want you to, like, say, like, okay, but now I know how to help this, because it's not that my child is bad, or it's not that they're, like, doing something to be manipulative. It's like, now I can look and see what strategies I can do as the adult here to help them through it.

Shawna: 00:16:12

Yeah, exactly. You might see something like refusal, negotiation. Sometimes maybe they just, like, run away tantrums.

So we're looking at any of these could kind of be serving that same function of escaping. And so when we look as behavior analysts, we're often looking at the function of behavior rather than the topography, which is.

Sounds complex, but it's not. The topography is what the behavior itself looks like. So are they saying no? Are they saying, I need three more minutes?

Brittany: 00:16:43

Right?

Shawna: 00:16:44

Are they running away? Are they hitting you? Are they screaming like, what does the behavior itself look like?

And that is like, I do want to know that, but it's not kind of a key factor for me. So I'm looking at the what does the behavior look like? But I'm more so looking at the function of the Behavior.

Brittany: 00:16:57

Right.

Shawna: 00:16:57

And so in behavior analysis, we look at behavior serving one of four functions. So to access attention, access things you like doing something just because it feels good, or to get out of something that you don't like.

Brittany: 00:17:11

Right.

Shawna: 00:17:11

And so in this case, whether it's saying, no, I'm not going, or screaming, hitting, I need two more minutes, all those different topographies, the function is probably the same, okay. Where they're trying to escape the transition or delay the transition.

And so once we boil it down to that, not that it doesn't matter what the topography looks like, but then I'm able to figure out from here, okay, you don't want to do this transition. That gives me important insight, light into the next time we transition and also in that moment, what I could do to kind of work through it.

Brittany: 00:17:44

Fair? Fair. Okay. So essentially what we're saying is that some kids stall or resist transitions.

Not to be defiant or like bad kids, of course, like we say, but because they're trying to hold something good or, like, avoid something less preferred. Right. And so they're stalling that or pausing it. And then over time, this pausing can become like a learned pattern. And it's not a bad behavior.

It's just like a way to cope with hope.

Shawna: 00:18:07

Yeah, exactly.

Brittany: 00:18:08

All right, so another thing I was thinking about is the idea of these, like, reminders or signals that tell a child what's coming next. So in speech and language, we might think of these size, like, cues that we use to help kids understand what to expect.

So, for example, if a child sees a visual schedules, that says, like, right now it's playtime, but next it's math, they've learned that this signals the end of something fun, like playtime.

Shawna: 00:18:30

Exactly. In aba, we refer to it as a discriminative stimulus or an sda.

And for some kids, just seeing those cues, like a schedule or even like, you got two more minutes, can actually make them more upset or anxious because they're then associating with the end of something that they really enjoy. And it's not just about the task itself. It's about the cue or this discriminative stimuli has come to signal something that they don't want to do.

And so then it can trigger resistance or avoidance behavior before the transition even started.

Brittany: 00:19:07

Right, Right. Okay, so we. We talked about visual schedules in a previous episode though, too.

And so we're saying, like, they can really be really helpful sometimes for sure.

But here we're saying sometimes the schedule or the signal itself might be like a Trigger potentially, like, for anxiety or stress or like something else for a malady, adaptive behavior, even though it's meant to help them. Exactly, exactly.

Shawna: 00:19:32

And that's why we want to be thoughtful about how we use these strategies and cues and kind of look at how our child or the client is responding to them. If they always mean a difficult or less preferred activity is coming up, then they can just react to them before even the task begins. Right.

If it's always first we're playing and then we're brushing teeth, going to the bathroom, whatever. These kind of things that I don't really ever want to do. And this is my favorite thing, then this, like, first then board.

Brittany: 00:20:05

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:20:05

Is like, aversive to me because it always means bad things are happening. Right, right, right, right.

Brittany: 00:20:10

Okay, got it. So not. We're not saying don't use the visual. We're saying, like, think about how you're using it sometimes don't use it.

Shawna: 00:20:17

And. Right. Like some kids, like, don't want it, don't need it, don't benefit from it.

I would say, like, look at how your child's responding to it and then see, because again, this is the. That Jessel article. Same article. Sorry.

Found that some transitions actually improved when they removed those predictive cues and used unsignaled probabilistic reinforcement. Sorry. Which means the learner didn't know exactly what was coming next. And sometimes what came next was still reinforcing.

And so it challenged this assumption that predictability is always better in some contexts. Predictability, which means brace for something hard, can actually increase that problem behavior.

Brittany: 00:21:02

Oh, interesting.

Shawna: 00:21:02

And so in, for example, if you wanted to do this unsignaled probabilistic reinforcement, we're actually have this kind of running at the clinic right now with the learner. And so we've categorized transitions under rich, moderate, lean.

Brittany: 00:21:19

Okay.

Shawna: 00:21:20

So favorite activities, kind of like okay activities, least favorite activities. And right now, what we're. She has a really hard time transitioning. A low sort of as soon as the transition happens.

And she doesn't even with these first then things.

Brittany: 00:21:32

Whatever. And the lopes means runs away.

Shawna: 00:21:34

Yes.

Brittany: 00:21:34

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:21:34

And so in her case, we've like, come up with a list of transition types that happen. And then we do like 70 are rich to rich transitions. So things that she likes to. Things that she likes. 20 are those moderate transitions.

So, like going from. She loves, like the swing in the sensory room, but she also really likes play. D'oh.

And so going from something that she really, really like, something she does also like, like play doh are like 20% of her transitions. And then 10% of the transitions are rich to lean. So like sensory room to work to some sort of classroom activity.

And so for her right now we're doing this 70% are like her favorite transitions.

And then what we'll do over time is like, as she's transitioning better, we'll start kind of mixing that ratio up a little bit more and have it more random. And someday she'll still access those 70% awesome transitions. Right. Like, same thing maybe. My kids on the weekends, I don't have a lot going on.

I can, like, follow their lead and we can do kind of what they want. And then we've got other times though, where we just, like, have to transition.

And so by practicing and showing them that transitions can be really good. Right, right. Then I'm able to. Or that they're reinforced for transitioning because we're going into something cool.

Brittany: 00:22:51

Cool. Okay. I like that. I like that clinical example too. I didn't know we were running that well. Yeah, I've seen the one running that program.

But that's really cool. Y.

Shawna: 00:22:59

Awesome.

Brittany: 00:22:59

Thanks for sharing.

Okay, so just again, to summarize this first piece from a behavioral lens, transitions are difficult because they often involve a loss of reinforcement. So like ending a preferred activity and then the introduction of a demand.

So like, often in a lean reinforcement context or something that they've got to do.

Like, like you were saying, if they're going from this rich, like, high sensory room on a swing to just like learning in the classroom, that's going from that rich to lean. And so behaviorally we're saying, like, that's obviously why they're having a difficult time.

Shawna: 00:23:31

Yeah, exactly. And I think what this means is we need to do more than just put up a visual schedule, give a two minute warning. We need to look at.

Oh, the three term contingency. I have to bring it up. Sorry. I think I know this. I think I know this.

Brittany: 00:23:45

Okay, so a three. Three. Again, we promise no jargon on the podcast, so we always will try to explain what we're talking about. But I feel like I know this one.

It's very aba. The three term contingent contingency. And correct me if I'm wrong. So this is the ABCs, right?

Shawna: 00:23:58

Exactly.

Brittany: 00:23:58

We're talking about A, the antecedent or something that happens before the B being the behavior. And again, behavior is not bad. It's like whatever is happening, like whether you're breathing or Lana is breathing. A behavior.

Shawna: 00:24:11

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:24:12

Yeah. Okay, so Whether you're just saying bah or something.

Shawna: 00:24:14

Okay.

Brittany: 00:24:15

And then the C is the consequence of whatever happened next. So the three. Right. Three part contingency abc, what's happening before, what happened and then what happens after.

Shawna: 00:24:23

Exactly. That's right. And so, and this is what we like as a behavior analyst, this is like what I'm doing all the time.

As soon as is I've identified something that I'm interested in, some sort of behavior, I'm looking at what happened right before it. Sometimes I'll look even further out too. Like I think there's certainly value in looking at other factors. Right. Like did they sleep last night?

Brittany: 00:24:44

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:24:44

Have they eaten? One that comes up in the clinic often. Are they constipated? And looking at some of those factors too. So it's not just boiled down to that, but yeah.

Anyways, the antecedent is what happened like right before it. The behavior, it's itself and then the consequence meaning like what happened after it.

Not just did you school them and spank them or something like that. I think oftentimes consequence sounds like so harsh. Whereas like what we really mean is just what happened right after.

And so with transitions, we need to look at these three parts too, right? What's the antecedent, what's the behavior and what consequence is maintaining it. Transitions aren't just hard, they're very complex.

And the more we understand about those ABCs, we can like sort of infer a function. Um, and that, that way the we can come up with a personalized strategy to support the child.

Brittany: 00:25:35

We've talked a lot, a lot already. And again like I feel like everything sounds so easy, but we're saying it's quite complex.

Shawna: 00:25:40

Right.

Brittany: 00:25:40

So you're looking at these ABCs like what did happen before, what is their behavior and then how, whether it was reinforced or not and like what's that consequence?

But then also are you as the adult expecting the child to just like pick up and go and change from this like rich, fun activity to something like kind of boring? Are you setting up a visual schedule that's like effective?

So is your first something really cool and, and then is something like what they feel is punishing? Right. So. So if you're using visuals, use them thoughtfully.

And then sometimes like coming back to that Handley article, that's like very interesting to me that sometimes those visuals may not be as helpful.

Shawna: 00:26:14

Yeah, I've definitely seen that clinically in practice and I feel like myself also, I don't really like to sit and know kind of what's coming? Always like, like to know a general plan. I don't know that I need to be reminded throughout the day.

You know, like example that comes to mind is like going to the doctor.

Brittany: 00:26:33

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:26:34

Right. If I. Or like getting a. Giving blood or something, I don't really like to do it.

Brittany: 00:26:37

Right.

Shawna: 00:26:38

It's like I don't want to think about that like every five minutes cuz there's a visual schedule in front of me. Like I know it's coming at the end of the day, like I got to go after work or whatever, but I don't need to be reminded about it.

Or like if I have like a really difficult conversation with like someone for whatever reason, I don't need to see that like all morning reminding me that later today I got to do that.

Brittany: 00:26:59

Fair.

Shawna: 00:27:00

And so I think that's when it might not be helpful.

Brittany: 00:27:04

Right.

Shawna: 00:27:04

Whereas some children might really enjoy being able to like look up and reference. Right. And be like, okay, yep, this, I know this is coming, you know, but.

And so it's like so personalized to the individual and I think also to the situation and the event. Right. Like, like I said, like getting blood work or giving, getting a needle or something is like really quite aversive to most people.

Brittany: 00:27:23

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:27:24

And so for kids for example, that might be really hard, especially if it's at the end of the day that that's on their schedule and there's like, oh God, I gotta go do that again. O. Oh no. Oh yeah, that is coming up. Oh yeah, we're getting closer to that thing. Right. And then you might see them sort of dysregulated all day.

Brittany: 00:27:37

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:27:38

Whereas we could have sort of talked about in the morning. Like I'm not saying don't tell them they're going for going to the doctor is instead I'll let them know in the morning.

Brittany: 00:27:45

Right.

Shawna: 00:27:46

And then when I pick them up, I've got a good strategy I'm going in with.

That's what I'm probably using some of these transitional strategies to support that transition into the doctor because that's going to be really hard.

Brittany: 00:27:57

Ah, very cool. So we're giving you lots to think about here.

But so now, now that we've given you sort of this like all the things to think about and we're saying it's quite complex, we want to give you some strategies that work. So we've unpacked like why these transitions are hard. And then again I want to tell you like what actually helps.

And these are some of our Go to strategies that we use with our own kids in our own families, but we also use in the clinic and therapy. And they're not just about helping. Sorry. They are just about helping kids move through these transitions with support and not stress.

So we're trying to, like, reduce that moment of stress through the transition. Right. Okay, perfect. All right, so strategy number one is. I didn't know this.

I know the first that I know the strategy, but I didn't know there was, like, a principle behind it.

Shawna: 00:28:39

Behavioral terms. We've got something for everything, of course.

Brittany: 00:28:41

Okay, so the first strategy is our first then. So we've alluded to that already in the episode. But what I didn't know is it's called a Premack principle. It is, exactly.

Shawna: 00:28:51

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:28:51

Okay, so let's learn about this. So.

So most of you as listeners, if you're in the classro, or if you're a parent, you've probably heard of first then, but again, Premack principle, if you're on our ABA teams, then maybe you've. Maybe you knew that already. Anyways, this one's simple but powerful.

So first, then statements are based on this Premack principle, which means that we use a more preferred activity to support the completion of the less preferred one. So instead of clean up, now you might say, first we clean up, then you choose the music for the car.

Shawna: 00:29:21

Exactly. And, like, here's the key that then has to be genuinely motivating.

So I like, in this example, we didn't just say, and then getting in the car, which my children don't really want to do, but they do have very strong preferences around music.

Brittany: 00:29:34

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:29:35

And so if you're saying, like, first we clean, then we brush your hair, that's not reinforcement. That's just a string of demands that I'm giving you. Right. And so I like, I said that example is, like, so perfect.

We're, like, customizing the then to what your child or the learner is, like, genuinely motivated for. Right. And again, as parents, professionals, clinicians, teachers, I often think, like, we're kind of like marketers, right.

Trying to get inside their brain. How am I gonna sell this to you a little bit? Because if I need to think of, like, a great then.

Brittany: 00:30:08

Yeah, right, Exactly. And so for, like, for our kids, like, like we said, going in the car is, like, actually not fun, even if we're going somewhere fun.

So, like, leaving the house to go to the park, for example, they just don't want to get in the car. But if we're saying, like, okay, first we're gonna clean up then. What song do you want to have in the car?

And it might be like, listen to that Chicken Nugget song. Very popular in your house or in my house. It's like Chapel Rona.

Shawna: 00:30:30

Yes.

Brittany: 00:30:31

So and then giving them that, like, a little bit of autonomy.

Shawna: 00:30:33

Right.

Brittany: 00:30:33

And, like, letting help. Helping them decide what they want to do in that car.

Shawna: 00:30:37

And it's like, shifting their brain, too, Right. Instead of sitting in this, like, bad transition. Right. Like, I don't really want to clean up, and I also don't really want to go in the car.

I've, like, helped their brain sort of shift and see the positive in the transition, too, instead of sitting in the negative part of a transition.

Brittany: 00:30:53

Yeah, I like that. That too. Okay.

And actually, that is in our transition toolkit, talking about, like, how to kind of reframe through the transition and help their brains through it. But I also, like, you and I talk a lot about distinguishing from bribery from, like, what's the other al like from this kind of strategy.

So using, like, a first then. And using this strategy is different from bribery. So we're not just, like, offering chocolate. Chocolate to. To leave every fun thing. Right.

And so, again, if, like, you and I, I know we've, like, tried to boil this down, like, how does this. How do we define this as different from being, like, from bribery?

And so bribery often happens after the challenging behavior starts, and then it accidentally, like, reinforces that behavior. Right.

So, like, so commonly I think of the grocery store, and if someone's having a meltdown, and then in that meltdown, you're like, okay, here, like, have a chocolate. And then let's just get out of the store. Right?

Shawna: 00:31:51

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That would be a good example. Or that bribery, for sure.

Brittany: 00:31:57

Or like, that if, like, if, yes, you're offering something in the moment of tantrum, like, if you stop screaming, we'll get ice cream. Yeah, exactly.

Shawna: 00:32:03

Like, language matters for sure. And timing matters.

Brittany: 00:32:06

Okay.

Shawna: 00:32:07

As well. Right. You're saying these in the moment responses or like, you're just trying to turn the behavior off.

Brittany: 00:32:11

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:32:12

And again, there's like, a time and a place probably for that. Right.

Like, I was recently at a funeral, and, like, you just like, I couldn't have my child scream, obviously, you know, like, so I got to kind of, like, in that moment, I wouldn't myself probably ever use. Use an if statement, because I think that's, like, really giving too much control to this maladaptive behavior.

But I'm like, in that moment just, like, oh, my gosh. I need you to stop screaming.

Brittany: 00:32:38

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:32:39

And so giving him something to distract him would work.

Brittany: 00:32:42

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:32:42

Right. Anyways, what we are talking about is proactive reinforcement. So I'm setting this up before.

Brittany: 00:32:49

Right.

Shawna: 00:32:50

It's very clear. It's before or, like, while I'm telling them about the transition.

Brittany: 00:32:57

And then I'm.

Shawna: 00:32:57

Offering something that the child, like, genuinely wants. And so I'm setting it up ahead of time before the behavior escalates as a support, not a negotiation in that moment.

Brittany: 00:33:09

Yeah. Okay. So again, that's, like, kind of where the difference is. Right.

Like, when we're talking about, like, bribery versus this, like, proactive reinforcement, we're using it instead as an antecedent strategy. Strategy, essentially, or like a strategy that we're setting up before.

Shawna: 00:33:26

Exactly. And I think the other thing, too, like, bribery often ends up, like, being sort of unrelated to the environment and the context.

Like, I'll give you chocolate for leaving the park or whatever. Right.

Brittany: 00:33:37

Okay.

Shawna: 00:33:38

Whereas with reinforcement or with this strategy that I'm suggesting to use this first, then strategy is like, I know we got to get in the car. I'm not bribing you with chocolate to get in the car. I'm sorry.

Of reframing the transition to be like, you can pick the music, which is actually just like, a natural consequence of the transition versus, like, adding in something artificial.

Brittany: 00:33:58

Okay.

Shawna: 00:33:59

You know, and so, like, at the park, I. We've talked about this a lot, but I often will say, like, let's go home and get freezies or something. Right, right.

And again, it's like, it is a treat. How is this different from offering them chocolate? Maybe it's not, but in my case, I was going to give them the freezy anyways. It's hot at the park.

I need them to rehydrate, and so why not offer it that way? Where I'm setting up this transition to be like, first we're. Now we're at the park, and then we're going to go home and get a freezy. Right.

I'm giving them support to make that transition of leaving the park easier.

Brittany: 00:34:29

Got it. Okay.

Shawna: 00:34:30

And then I would say if you listen to our other episode on visual supports, there's lots of strategies in there, and sometimes visual supports can really help. Especially we. As we talked about in that episode, if they're in, like, a dysregulated, regulated state or our.

A child that really doesn't like transitions, then the visuals might be really helpful because we find often it's like they can't hear us. We know their hearing's just fine, but it's just like they're unable to sort of take in what we're saying.

And so the pictures can be a really nice strategy to add clarity and structure. Okay, where? To the transition and help them kind of see what's going on. Going on.

Brittany: 00:35:11

Right. And so again, if you've got like the first then. And it's like first is clean up and then is bubble time. Exactly. Something like that.

And then it's like adding this clarity and structure, like for what's coming next.

Shawna: 00:35:23

Exactly.

Brittany: 00:35:23

Okay, perfect. All right. So the next strategy that we want to talk about is shift the focus to what's next.

So you sort of alluded to this already, but sometimes transition can kind of go sideways because we spend too much time focusing on what's ending. And definitely.

Shawna: 00:35:39

Right.

Brittany: 00:35:39

Like as parents, we've like naturally end up doing this accidentally. Right. And so, like, if we're saying it's time to stop, we're leaving now, or, you know, that's kind of tricky for them.

They were like, really focusing on like what's happening now. And it can kind of feel abrupt and even punishing.

Shawna: 00:35:56

Right, exactly. And that's where, like, you can pick the music in the car. Right.

We're focusing on what's next and like kind of reframing this transition moment for them. And as we know, like, the kids are just like they're learning, learning all of these executive functioning skills and language from our modeling.

Right. And so if we're able to give them that language to reframe the transition, like, what a powerful strategy to support them.

Brittany: 00:36:20

Right.

Shawna: 00:36:20

And so with younger kids, we might do something fun like let's tiptoe like ninjas to the car or like a big rocket blast right to lunch. Whereas, like, for older kids, we might reframe the transition to let them know, like, we're going home, but here's what we're gonna do.

So when we get home, you'll have time to like your video games or like after we get home, you can go up to your room and relax on your own kind of thing.

Brittany: 00:36:45

Right, Right. So we're kind of reframing that and like making it fun for or making it enjoyable through the transition.

And so the idea here is we're creating this like forward facing narrative or like just helping them think about what's next and that we're helping them see, like this cool moment isn't just ending. It's like a bridge to something else that's Happening next.

Shawna: 00:37:05

Yeah, exactly. And it helps us too, right? It keeps us focused on what we're working towards instead of what we're leaving taking away.

And then our tone tends to be a little bit lighter and more encouraging and less reactive because we've got a plan too, right? Like, we've come up with a thoughtful transition plan here.

Brittany: 00:37:22

Right? Oh, sorry.

I was just thinking about how you said earlier in the episode, like, as parents, sometimes we got our clinicians, we gotta be like a marketer. And we mean that with so much kindness and compassion for the learner or our learners. Right?

And so if you are saying, like, I'll do this with my speech clients all the time, like, leaving the clinic, I want it to be really cool. I want you to, like, want to come back again the next day.

And so, you know, we're leaving this really fun game and get into the door might not be cool for them. And so I'll say to them, like, okay, shall we, like, hop down the hallway like bunnies or do you want to, like, slither like snakes?

And like, I have a learning that I do this every week. And he loves it. He looks forward to the session ending because he knows I'm getting him to the door in this really cool way.

So it's like a fun way instead of just me just being like, okay, peace, dude, like, I'll see you next week.

Shawna: 00:38:05

Yeah, exactly. And like, obviously in the speech sessions, again, just so much attention, right? You're like one on one, focused on them. Them doing like, this.

Obviously a lot of work too, but in a fun and playful way. So I can see why it'd be like, really tricky to leave that.

Brittany: 00:38:18

Yeah, right.

Shawna: 00:38:19

All right, tip number three. We talk a little bit about this in the visual support episode as well, but giving warnings that actually mean something. So we'll often hear.

And I'm certainly guilty of it myself. Five more minutes. It's like such a classic thing to say. Sometimes it works.

But for lots of kids, especially younger ones, that warning is like, so abstract. Like, what is five minutes? And like, again, even for myself, I often don't set a five minute timer.

And then like, either only one minute has gone by and I'm like, okay, yeah, let's wrap this up. Or 10 minutes has now gone by and so I'm not even consistent.

Brittany: 00:38:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Or like kids that can't tell time yet or like, don't have a watch on them, like, that is very, very abstract.

And so instead, what we're going to suggest you do Is like anchor time warnings to something concrete or observable. So for example, if we're at the park, we're saying like, three more swings and then we're heading out.

Or if you're at home, you're like two more turns with the puzzle, then we're putting it away. And so instead of like an abstract, okay, five more minutes, we're just saying, like, okay, two more jumps and then we're out.

And so these are measurable, countable, and then like understandable, most importantly, really, for the. For your learner.

Shawna: 00:39:32

Exactly. And then you're creating like closure with structure instead of like kind of this abstract warning.

Brittany: 00:39:38

Yeah, right.

Shawna: 00:39:39

Or like a threat. Exactly. And offering a countdown that they can participate in. And that makes the transition feel predictable and fair.

And I'd like to think about, again, like, from their perspective, if they're watching a show on the tv, I'll almost always, like, try and let them finish an episode out. And I try to, like, manipulate the environment for them to set them up for success for that transition. And so if I know We've only got 10 minutes.

Minutes. I'm not gonna put on a show that's longer. Right. I'm gonna put on. I'm trying to think of what my kids like right now.

Like, Super Kitties has like a short episode and they're into that. And so great. If we've only got 10 minutes. And that's a perfect option.

And I. I don't know, there's one other that has a 10 minute option so I can present two to them.

Brittany: 00:40:24

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:40:25

And so again, just like kind of setting things up for success rather than.

Brittany: 00:40:29

Stopping their favorite show in the middle.

Shawna: 00:40:30

In the middle. Exactly. Which, like, I'd be pissed out too, if I was watching the Real Housewives and I had a pause it in the middle. No, thanks.

Brittany: 00:40:35

Exactly. No, you'd be eloping.

Shawna: 00:40:38

Yes, yes. Running away in a corner, finishing the episode. I love it.

Brittany: 00:40:43

So then again, like, we're talking about giving these, like, concrete, observable ways to move through the transition. It's also a chance to support language development. And so again, we're talking about, like, sequencing, planning, and following routines.

So if we're saying, like, okay, we're going to do two more turns with the puzzle than we're putting away, this is also like helping them with that sequencing and planning practice of language.

Shawna: 00:41:04

Yeah, exactly. Tip number four, get in early with reinforcement for cooperation with that transition. Yes.

Brittany: 00:41:12

This one is huge. So if we wait to give them reinforcement after or. Sorry. Like, if we Sorry.

Shawna: 00:41:18

What I want to say is if.

Brittany: 00:41:19

We wait to support them after they've like already melted down or resisted, we've like missed that teachable moment. So we've missed like, like I was saying at the very beginning of the episode, we need to, instead of looking at them like this, they're bad at this.

We are saying there's a skill they're missing here.

And so if we're waiting until like the meltdown happens, we've missed that teachable moment to help them like learn this skill and like really get through it confidently. And so we want to catch it early and reinforce these early steps of community cooperation. Sorry.

And so if they're like taking that first step towards the transition, we're going, hey, I love how you are starting to get your shoes or something. Something like that.

Shawna: 00:41:57

Yeah, exactly. And I think as a parent, what I'm looking for for my kids is like as soon as I see any sort of buy in, I'm like getting in there. Right.

The as soon as they've like dropped a toy or whatever the thing is, or they've taken their bodies orienting towards me to leave the park.

Brittany: 00:42:14

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:42:15

I'm like, jump in and be like, thanks so much, this is awesome. And then I might come in and be like, do you want a bunny hop or ninja swipe to the car kind of thing.

Brittany: 00:42:23

Right.

Shawna: 00:42:25

Or I'm going to like reinforce. Reinforce the process of transitioning, not just when we get to the car. Like look for opportunities along the way.

Brittany: 00:42:32

Right.

Shawna: 00:42:33

And so transitions do have a chain of small cooperative behaviors. So like them approaching you, them pausing. Like I was saying, if they're checking in with me, picking up a bag, I want to shape.

Which means I need to reinforce all those little steps too when I see that. Right. And so when we start reinforcing early again, it keeps their brain on the positive sort of what's next? Instead of sitting in a. No, I'm working.

I'm building this pattern of success with them where they can associate transition cues with positive feedback from me. And then eventually they know that they're going to get something better.

You know, instead of that, like we're going from the park, like with conflict.

Brittany: 00:43:14

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:43:15

And pressure too. Again, I think it's like we want to think of things from their perspective. If they're in the middle of this elaborate game at the park.

Brittany: 00:43:23

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:43:23

And you gave them a five minute warrant morning, that was pretty abstract to them. And then now five minutes is up. But it was finally their turn to be it or whatever in the game. Right. Like, that would be.

Of course they're going to be upset about that. That was what they were working. They were playing this game with their friends for so long so they could be the person. That was it.

Brittany: 00:43:38

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:43:39

And then we're coming in and just saying, like, no, sorry, time to go. Of course you're gonna get resistance.

Brittany: 00:43:44

Yeah, exactly. And then again, they don't know what's coming next. They think just, like, leaving something. The best time ever to this abstract. I have no idea.

But I don't know, like, mom's gonna be mad if I do it. Yes. Doing it.

Shawna: 00:43:54

Exactly.

Brittany: 00:43:55

And reinforcement here, like, you were talking about, is not bribery. I know we touched on that already, but, like, we're not just, like, pulling out a cookie. Then in the middle.

Middle of that tantrum, you're building this, like, learning history for them. Of, like, when I do approach mom, when she says, like, okay, we're getting ready to go, like, let's do two more jumps.

Then when I turn towards her, then already good stuff's happening. Or like, when I do kind of follow along with what my. My instructor is saying, then good things are happening to me too.

Shawna: 00:44:24

Exactly.

And I was thinking, if you're someone that's, like, trying out this strategy for the first time and are having difficult transitions currently, I wouldn't expect this to work the first time. Right. Like, we're seeing at the beginning of the episode, we're talking a lot about learning history and so what kind of.

Has been the pattern of behavior? Right. And as a parent, again, I want to sit back, or a clinician, whatever, teacher. I want to sit back and think, what was my role in this?

How was I maybe accidentally reinforcing maladaptive behaviors and showing them that those maladaptive behaviors work.

Brittany: 00:44:59

Right, right.

Shawna: 00:45:00

And once I've sort of identified that, then I can think about how can I make a bridge to this first, then strategy? And, like, I'm saying, the first time you do it, and you're like, do you want to be ninjas or bunnies? They might just say no.

Brittany: 00:45:13

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:45:13

Right. Because they're not used to this new strategy.

Brittany: 00:45:15

True. And.

Shawna: 00:45:16

And so as a parent, my job then is to be consistent. I'm not pulling out a cookie and saying, well, if you choose a bunny or if you pick one, then we can have a cookie instead.

I'm like, I'm holding firm on my boundary too. Right. I feel like I came in with a really strong plan that was respectful.

I took in, like, all of your Points of view and like tried to think about when three more pushes on the swing. That was a fair boundary to set for today. We gotta go.

And so as a parent, again, I gotta stay confident in that boundary that I set that and follow through.

I'm going to try and make it fun by bunny hopping or ninja ing, but you might find the first few times that you do it that it's not the, it doesn't click right away because they're used to a different learning contingency. Right.

Brittany: 00:45:57

They're yeah.

Shawna: 00:45:59

Used to kind of different things.

But if you try, if you can be consistent for a couple days or a week and then sort of evaluate if the strategy is working, that's what I always recommend because you need some time for them, them to shift too. They're used to sort of a different environment around transitions and I can't expect them to switch with me right away.

And so be patient, try it out a few times and if it doesn't work like the first few times, it's not your fault, it's not the child's fault. We're not blaming anyone.

I might like think about all these different things, the antecedent, the behavior, the consequence and maybe make some changes next time.

Brittany: 00:46:33

I like that.

Shawna: 00:46:34

But yeah, it's like a good thing to consider. Don't abandon it right away if it's.

Brittany: 00:46:38

It doesn't work. Yeah, I love that very good take home message there. And then as you were talking, I was also thinking about you want to like tailor it to your child.

And so for your kids, I know them really well and I, I know one of your sons, like if you said shall we like do a ninja top to the car or run like a cheetah, he's all in.

Shawna: 00:46:54

Right.

Brittany: 00:46:54

Because those are his favorite things. But with my 8 year old daughter, like those probably wouldn't be her top things.

And so for my 5 year old, I might say like, okay, shall we waddle like penguins or like you know, pop bubbles in the air or something like she's all buy in for that. But my older one, I'm gonna say she'll, shall we like do a model walk like chapel roan? And then she might be in.

Shawna: 00:47:13

Right?

Brittany: 00:47:13

Yes, yes, yes. Think about your learner or your child and like really personalize that to them. Of course too.

And like think about what might be that fun like cool thing that they can do to help transition. Exactly, exactly.

Shawna: 00:47:25

And like I think in those moments like staying connected and calm is like one of our other tips. Right.

It's so challenging sometimes, like, you're just like, we especially, I have like, high stakes, like, we're going to be late for an appointment or like, we got to get this done before this or school starting in five minutes. We got to go.

Brittany: 00:47:42

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So staying connected and calm cannot emphasize that one enough. Even though it's so hard. Yes. So our emotional tone sets the stage. Really.

And then if we're approaching those transitions with like, tension and frustration and urgency, of course, which like, truly often happens. And so we gotta help ourselves. Right? Like, set my own reminder.

If I know we gotta leave the park at 10 o', clock, I'm setting a reminder for myself, like 15 minutes early.

Shawna: 00:48:06

Right.

Brittany: 00:48:06

So that I'm not coming at it with this like, tension and frustration.

Shawna: 00:48:09

Like, we gotta go.

Brittany: 00:48:10

Oh. Which like. And I'm very guilty of this, like, in the morning, right? Like, we don't have enough time ever. Every single morning. And so.

But if I'm like coming at that transition, like without that calmness, it's just not going to go well. And like, they're gonna. Their nervous root system is going to respond to what mine is doing.

And so my, My daughter's very good at, like, articulating that. Like, mom, I really don't like it when you rush me through this. I don't feel good right now. And I'm like, okay, yeah, you know what?

This is actually my problem, like my fault because I. I'm not calm in this moment. And then so instead, like helping myself, like, remember to stay connected and calm, then it's going to be easier for everybody.

Shawna: 00:48:46

Yeah, exactly. And like you said, the kids kind of pick up on our tone of voice for sure. Like our mannerisms.

And then these can become, in the ABA world, like they're conditioned, motivating events like CMOs.

Brittany: 00:49:01

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:49:01

Just signal that like, something bad's kind of coming. Right. Like, I can see mom's getting worked up.

Brittany: 00:49:05

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:49:06

And so the more that we can try out our co regulation strategies where we are using like a soft tone of voice or slowing our movement. And then in these, like, really ch. Like if you're having a challenging transition, that's when I think it's like extra hard. Right, right.

And so, like, sometimes it can be nice just if you have to say something out loud, you know, like, this is hard and we can do it together. And like, I'm holding my boundary. We are still transitioning, but I'm staying close, calm y.

And trying to like, keep the environment calm, but still pushing through on my boundary. And so that small shift from directing partnering can completely change the like, child experiences in the moment.

Because we're feeling connected still. Right. Instead of that, we're like fighting through this transition. I'm like, here, I'm calm. We're gonna make it through.

Everything's like, you're safe. Everything's safe.

Brittany: 00:50:04

To hopefully be.

Shawna: 00:50:05

Bring that nervous system back down.

Brittany: 00:50:06

Yeah, for sure. Like, and I like to have these sort of go to scripts in my mind when my kids are anxious or distressed. And I might say something like, yeah, I see.

This is really tough. I'm right here. Let's take that step together. Or like you were saying, like, this is hard. We can do it together.

So it's like this idea that we're partners in this, but I also am acknowledging your feelings. And I know that this is hard for you. And so I'm not like sitting in that. I'm like just acknowledging it. And so I see this as tough. I'm here.

Let's take that step together. That's like allowing this validation. And I'm like bringing it like a partnership kind of thing.

And then we're more confident when we're doing it together.

Shawna: 00:50:43

Exactly. And so the summing everything up here. The best transition strategies are not managing behavior.

Brittany: 00:50:52

Right.

Shawna: 00:50:53

They're building skills. So we're looking at, why is this transition hard and how can I help you to develop the skills to make transitioning easier.

Brittany: 00:51:00

Right.

Shawna: 00:51:00

They support understanding and create space for connection and growth.

We get curious about the function of the transition behaviors and pair that with those like, really clear supports, proactive reinforcement, co regulation. Then we're not just getting through the moments. We're building like these big picture skills for them.

Brittany: 00:51:19

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like, it's always about the long term goal too, Right? Not just like this one transition. We.

We're gonna have to transition for the rest of our lives. Like it's just a natural part of every single day for every human.

Shawna: 00:51:32

Exactly.

Brittany: 00:51:33

All right, so next we want to talk about embedding these practice opportunities across context. So again, it's like, not that we're just practicing this from the park.

We're practicing it like in our, our, our everyday, right through all kinds of things that we're doing. And so I feel like I.

Another thing I've learned from you and seen you do so many times, like when we're with our kids is practicing transitions when it's a time that I is like, not that stressful, which is kind of nice. And so we don't want to teach the Skill when it's just like our go to stress moment.

And instead if you know your child struggles with like, leaving the park, for example, we're going to build in these, like, low pressure practice on like, neutral days or times when we're like, not as rushed or we don't really have to get out of the house.

Shawna: 00:52:13

Exactly. Like, practice when the stakes are pretty low.

Brittany: 00:52:16

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:52:18

Try out these different strategies when you have the time to be patient and. And like, you know that you're feeling pretty calm too.

Brittany: 00:52:26

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:52:27

And so, like, thinking transitions are teachable moments. Right. But not always in the moment. Right in the moment. We're really not doing a lot of teaching.

Brittany: 00:52:35

Right.

Shawna: 00:52:36

Often it's like either before things happen, I'm gonna try and coach you through it, but if you're already dysregulated, I can't really teach you anything in that moment. I'm just trying to help you and myself sort of work through this.

Brittany: 00:52:50

Fair. Totally fair.

And so, for example, if you're like going on a pretend picnic and you practice packing it up together or like just using your visual schedules at home for fun, like, I do that all the time. You know, even when we're together, sometimes we'll do that.

Like here our families are all together and we got a little visual just so they kind of know what's coming up next.

And then we're practicing going through and like all of our things that, you know, I'm thinking if our families have gone away together, like everything on the visual schedule is fun. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But we're still practicing those transitions. Right.

Like we're going through from like going on a walk to then going to the beach or like, we're coming home, but we're going. They love it. They're rest and recharge time, which means they get a little bit of quiet time to like watch Vampirina or whatever. Yes, exactly.

Exactly. Perfect.

Shawna: 00:53:34

Okay, so we have another example.

Brittany: 00:53:36

Like when we're families were together just this past week when we found like the best park. Like, the best. Like, it was epic. Right. Like, there was a, a lighthouse you.

Shawna: 00:53:44

Could climb, like a fire truck that.

Brittany: 00:53:46

Your little one was driving, and like a mini vegetable stand, zip line, like climbers, like, you name it. Like, this was like the best park in my mind.

But I would say, like, neither of us were really nervous about leaving because we've done this so many times with our kids. But we did use a few strategies to ensure that that transition out of the park was smooth.

Shawna: 00:54:03

Yeah, exactly. We did the park Was awesome.

Brittany: 00:54:06

Yes, yes, yes.

Shawna: 00:54:07

And so I would say we use like a transition hierarchy where instead of jumping straight from high fun to low fun.

Brittany: 00:54:13

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:54:14

We moved through the steps that make that shift easier. So I want to grab ice cream across the street. Was what I did with my boys still fun. But we were moving towards the exit. I like ice cream.

It's consumable. So that's step two. We sit and eat the ice cream on the bench. Kind of like a slower pace. We're just kind of sitting there chit chatting.

And so it's not this like crazy park environment. We like sort of calm down ourselves. Had this really delicious ice cream. And then step three is like, all right, we're all done. Let's head to the car.

And then again, I'm using that switch to help them focus on what are we going to do in this case. Also amazing. There was an airplane, a giant airplane and a giant, like tank engine right beside our car. And our kids, My kids didn't see it.

They weren't with me when I parked. And so I was like, let's go find this giant airplane. And there was diggers and dump trucks along the walk.

And so it's very easy to keep them entertained and motivated. And so I was like building in this motivation, breaking things down into doable steps to help teach them to transition.

Brittany: 00:55:20

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:55:21

And this is like we're what we try and do at the clinic every day. Right. Is like we're trying to get into the kids brains.

Like I was saying with that one intervention we're doing right now for a girl that's really struggling to transition. So it's like compassionate ABA where we're like taking neuroaffirming principles and kind of looking at things from their point of view.

And I try and do that as a parent too. Set them up for success, not stress.

Brittany: 00:55:43

Love that. Love that. That should be your tagline. Thank you.

Shawna: 00:55:47

Transitions don't have to be rigid. They can be playful, rhythmic, even joyful, for sure. And trying to create those predictable, autonomous, connected transitions.

So I'm using similar strategies every time we're trans transitioning. Right. So I'm predictable. I'm giving them some agency or autonomy in the transition. Maybe a choice option.

Maybe I'm saying like, what do you need to do to finish up here? Right. Like you're building this elaborate thing with the magnetiles. Like, what are you up to?

Brittany: 00:56:17

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:56:17

And trying to find like giving them that opportunity to participate in the transition when I can be flexible. So, okay, you need to Build this house and then we're good to go. Okay, great. And I do that a lot with Lego with my son.

It's like, let's pick an ending point here. You could keep building forever, but you tell me where's like a comfortable ending point for you? Right. And then that creates that connection too.

Right.

Another thing I might do for that connection piece at the park, for example, is like, before we're transitioning, I might jump in and play with them again. Like, you guys are kind of sitting on the sidelines as I might come in, build that connection and be like, okay, this is so fun.

Yeah, let's do like maybe four more slides. And then we got to hit get to the grocery store. You can pick the music in the car kind of thing.

Brittany: 00:56:55

Right.

Shawna: 00:56:56

And then by doing those things, things, we're creating smoother transitions but maintaining that strong relationship together.

Brittany: 00:57:03

Yeah. One thing we didn't talk about too, is like offering them choices. Like, and sometimes you'll, you'll do this too. I know.

Like, you'll say, do you need two more jumps or four more jumps or something like that. And then you're like helping them in, like partnering again or like building that. Like, I see you want more jumps. 100.

And so we're saying to them, like, hey, do you think you want two more jumps or four more jumps before we head on to the car?

Shawna: 00:57:23

Exactly. And like my.

Brittany: 00:57:25

A five year old or almost five.

Shawna: 00:57:26

Year old, that works every time because he likes the big number. Right. So on two or four, he's always like four. That sounds so great.

Brittany: 00:57:33

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:57:33

Right? He doesn't have the big picture thoughts.

Brittany: 00:57:36

Yet, but then it's exciting for him and he's making a choice.

Shawna: 00:57:39

Yes.

Brittany: 00:57:39

Instead of it's all the parent making the choice. So, like, that's another cool little tip that we'll leave you with too.

And then again, coming back to the clinic, I wanted to say like functional communication too.

So, yes, if the child is really having trouble through that transition and they're saying, need to more time and you can tell that's what they want, but they like aren't being able to say it, we're going to come in and we're going to give them that functional communication. And so we're going to say, need more time to give them that language. Right?

Shawna: 00:58:03

Yeah, exactly.

Brittany: 00:58:05

Exactly.

All right, so whether you're heading to the grocery store, leaving a playdate, or starting a new therapy session, remember, like a calm body, a clear cue, and a trusted adult can really make the difference.

Shawna: 00:58:15

Thanks for listening. To neurodiversely speaking.

If you found this episode helpful, helpful, share it with a friend, a teacher, someone who's ever tried to leave the splash bed peacefully.

Brittany: 00:58:25

We'll be back with more ideas, more heart, and more strategies. Rooted connection. See you next time.

Shawna: 00:58:29

Thanks for listening.

Brittany: 00:58:31

Before we go, we want to remind our listeners that topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice. Please contact a professional if you have questions.

Shawna: 00:58:40

And just a heads up, we'll use both Identity first and Person first language to respect different preferences. We'll also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space, but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

Brittany: 00:58:52

See you next time.

Shawna: 00:58:53

Bye.