We Wrote a Sleep Behaviour Contract - Bye‑Bye Bedtime Meltdowns (Mostly)

Shawna: 00:00:00

Okay, this is a tricky thing and I really get it.

Like, I empathize with you.

You're going to bed, you're going to be in the dark, alone, sometimes has trouble falling asleep.

And so we write it all down like, okay, the problem right now is that going to bed is hard.

And we are both upset by the time we get to bed.

And then our new plan is set the timer.

Mom will give me a five minute warning and a two minute warning, and then what does success look like?

And then he signs it and I sign it.

Brittany: 00:00:26

Cool.

Hey, everyone.

I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

Shawna: 00:00:30

And I'm Shawna, behavior analys.

Brittany: 00:00:32

And we're your hosts at Neurodiversally Speaking.

Shawna: 00:00:34

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior.

Brittany: 00:00:41

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Shawna: 00:00:47

Let's get started.

Narrator: 00:00:48

Welcome to the Neurodiversally Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shawna Fleming from elemeno, brought to you by the Sensory Supply.

While we aim to make neurodiversity speaking suitable for all audiences, mature subject matter can sometimes be discussed, suitable only for those over the age of 18.

If you're under the age of 18, please talk to your parent or guardian before listening to our show or listen together with them to stay up to date on new episode releases and show updates.

Connect with us on Instagram @NeurodiversallySpeaking.

You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at hello@NeurodiversallySpeaking.com Neurodiversally Speaking starts now.

Brittany: 00:01:43

Perfect timing.

Today for this podcast episode, we're going to be talking about behavior contracts in relation to sleep.

And I haven't told you the story yet.

We've been hanging out and chatting now for a few minutes, but I have had a terrible sleep last night and all week, actually.

Oh, no.

And I, like, actually don't know how to solve it.

Shawna: 00:01:58

Perfect.

Let's solve it on live on air.

Brittany: 00:02:01

Yeah, exactly.

So, you know, I love my kids more than life itself, but I woke up so grumpy this morning and so, like, overstimulated.

My brain was on fire.

Yeah.

When I woke up this morning.

And so it's just, like, so hard to get out of bed and hoping parents and professionals alike, like, you can just relate to this.

Because if you are a parent and a professional, it's so hard to just,.

Shawna: 00:02:24

Like, jump into your day.

Brittany: 00:02:25

And then just parents, like, we just know sleep can affect everything that you do.

So what's going on with me?

My youngest goes to bed at night in her own bed.

Wonderful.

Love it.

We're at that stage and I'm feel very fortunate that we're at that stage that she's good and she'll fall asleep now, like without us falling asleep with her.

Shawna: 00:02:43

Oh, nice.

Some wins.

Brittany: 00:02:46

But in the middle of the night when I'm fast asleep, she comes in.

I don't even know.

Usually probably between like 1 and 3, I would imagine.

But I'm so asleep that I don't notice until she's.

Bless her.

She's so sensory seeking that she twirls my hair, which, you know.

Yes.

Day or night, anytime that she's with me, she'll twirl my hair, which is lovely.

And it's very, very, very sweet.

In the middle of the night, though, it's not just the twirling.

It's that every time she goes back for a new chunk of hair, and I think it's.

That's actually the part that she likes is like the initial, like, curl, like, of her finger.

And so of course, when I'm sleeping at night, my hair is like half.

Shawna: 00:03:26

Under me and whatever.

Brittany: 00:03:27

So it like catches every time.

And then there'll be the odd time where, you know, when you pull one piece of hair and it's like really hur.

Shawna: 00:03:33

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:03:34

And my scalp is just like so on fire.

And so then I was thinking in the middle of the night of our strategies.

Shawna: 00:03:41

Don't just be like, okay, like a stop.

Brittany: 00:03:43

Because that's not gonna work.

And so we were like, just posting about this yesterday.

Like, just saying like, well, just stop.

That's not gonna stop the behavior.

Obviously, we know that.

The function is like.

Anyways, so then I was like, tomb over here.

Twirls in the middle of the night and she's like half asleep and she's like, okay.

And then it's involuntary.

Shawna: 00:04:03

I was just.

That was gonna be.

To clarify is that she's like kind of like sleep twirling.

Like, she's not a sleep talker.

She's a sleep twirler.

Brittany: 00:04:10

Twirler, yes.

Like, she doesn't summer thumb.

She doesn't like, like, you know, some other kids will like, sleep with a stuffy.

That's her thing.

So it's like getting a kid to suck something in their thumb.

It's so hard because it is involuntary.

Shawna: 00:04:22

And it just happens when they're sleeping.

Brittany: 00:04:23

So with her, she will literally be asleep twirling all night if she could.

And she'll twirl her own hair if I'm not there.

And then when she's so I. I was like this morning, I was like, girl, you know I love you more than any.

I need sl.

I feel very grumpy.

And she was like, I'm sorry, mama.

And I was like, I don't.

Shawna: 00:04:41

Yeah, like, that's not the answer either.

I don't want to make you feel bad.

Brittany: 00:04:45

This is terrible.

Shawna: 00:04:46

So then, like, now I'm overstimulated and guilty.

Yeah, exactly.

And we're just walking.

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:04:52

And so then I'm like, okay, I really don't want to make you feel bad.

I know.

It's like nothing that you can even control.

So can I.

Like, and my other, My other kid goes, well, you do have that, like, bit of hair that.

When mom got a haircut, that was.

Shawna: 00:05:08

She's like, we'll just give you that.

Brittany: 00:05:10

And I, My.

My younger one was like, oh, okay.

Shawna: 00:05:13

Honestly, that was going to be my first suggestion.

A replacement behavior.

Brittany: 00:05:17

Right.

Shawna: 00:05:17

Is like, what?

Brittany: 00:05:18

Could you.

Shawna: 00:05:18

Could you give her some fake hair or something?

Yeah, it's just like laying at your nightstand in the middle of the night, you're just like.

Because I think there's like two questions.

Like, my first was like, do you want her out of your bed?

Is that the goal?

Right.

Or do you just want her not touching your hair?

And you're fine with her sleeping in your bed.

Brittany: 00:05:34

Right.

Shawna: 00:05:34

That's kind of the first distinction.

Brittany: 00:05:35

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:05:36

And my little guy sleeps with.

Or my oldest sleeps with us pretty much every night.

At some point he comes in and I love it.

I don'.

Want him to leave our bed.

My husband definitely does.

Brittany: 00:05:43

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:05:43

Yeah.

But won't put in the effort to make any behavior changes.

I feel like I'm safe.

Brittany: 00:05:47

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:05:47

Yeah.

But in your case, right?

Like, what do you think?

Like, do you love the snuggles?

The rest of it is fine.

I don't mind that you're in my bed.

Like, I love it, cuz you'll leave me soon.

Yeah.

Or are you thinking like.

No, I think like, she just got a goal and I'm not sleeping.

Brittany: 00:06:04

Yeah.

I mean, I think it's a tiered thing for me.

Like, I definitely would love some nights where I'm just sleeping alone.

That's my dream, you know, like, sleep alone.

We always laugh.

Cuz when you and I go away and we'll like be on a conference or something.

We'll Sleep alone.

It's like the most terrible sleep.

Shawna: 00:06:17

Yeah, yeah.

Brittany: 00:06:18

Like anxious and like, oh, like we should be sleeping.

Shawna: 00:06:21

Yes.

Brittany: 00:06:21

Anyways, I'm sure other parents can relate to that.

I don't mind that her coming in at all.

I love it.

I'm like you, I'm like, oh, give me the cuddles, the snuggles.

It's just when I'm like if I could fall back asleep and be good then I'd be fine.

It's the over stimulation of my head.

I'm very like sensitive to that.

So that.

Shawna: 00:06:37

Have you tried putting your hair in a ponytail?

She'll pull it out and she'll take it.

Okay.

Okay.

Brittany: 00:06:42

Yeah, yeah.

And then it's so annoying because then she's pulling at like the hair that's like tied and then I go crazy.

And then when she's just falling asleep, she'll say like mama, can you pull your hair out?

Shawna: 00:06:53

Right.

Brittany: 00:06:53

Or like I just do it naturally.

And she'll be like, thank you.

Right.

It's so sweet.

Shawna: 00:06:57

Right?

Brittany: 00:06:57

Yeah.

So cute.

And when she's falling asleep, I don't mind at all, you know, because then I'm awake and like I can tolerate it.

Yeah.

So the tiered thing.

Some nights I would love to sleep by myself but you know.

And so we talked about a wig actually.

Shawna: 00:07:09

Oh, nice.

Brittany: 00:07:09

Yeah.

And I mean when she was little, because this has been happening since she was born.

Like I have, I looked back at videos, photos, when she's like an infant and she's reaching up for her own little SC is so cute.

And, and so the amount of stuffies I have bought her of like, like when she was really little, I bought her this octopus with these long string things.

I thought, oh that's going to be so cool.

She's going to twirl that.

Nope, didn't want it.

And so there's something really unique about like the finess of hair that is hard to replicate.

Shawna: 00:07:36

Yes.

Brittany: 00:07:36

I've got her like, I don't know, like little dolls.

I thought, oh, this doll has really long hair.

She's going to love that.

No, no, didn't want it.

We gave it away.

So we're.

Because we actually haven't tried that before.

I don't think on homework or like.

Shawna: 00:07:49

You're just gonna have the wig in bed.

Brittany: 00:07:50

Yeah, but the wig.

Shawna: 00:07:51

Yeah, yeah, I think it could work.

And because she's sleeping gives a good amount of like opportunity to grab versus like.

Brittany: 00:07:57

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:07:58

If you did like I was thinking those hair clips that have fake hair.

Brittany: 00:08:00

Oh yeah.

We had some of those.

Shawna: 00:08:01

Yeah.

That's what I was picturing at first.

But then you have to find that in your bed.

Brittany: 00:08:04

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:08:05

So I feel like a wig is a good option.

Report back, let me know how it goes.

Brittany: 00:08:09

In the middle of the night, I was going to put like a.

What do you call those?

Like a swim cap on my head.

Shawna: 00:08:13

Right, right.

Well, again, as an antecedent strategy, I would say it to break the habit, potentially, if you get really desperate, then a swim cap is an option.

Brittany: 00:08:25

This is going to be the reel for this episode.

Shawna: 00:08:27

Me in a swim cap.

We'll get an update.

Brittany: 00:08:30

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, well, thank you.

So replacement behavior is a good idea.

Shawna: 00:08:35

Yeah.

I was going to say, taking a step back.

We think the function is sensory seeking, and therefore it is automatically reinforced.

Meaning, like, she likes to do it.

And that's where you're like, idea of saying stop is just, like, not going to work a.

Because she's, like, unconscious.

Brittany: 00:08:51

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:08:51

It doesn't.

Like, she's not even voluntarily doing it.

It's an involuntary movement.

So saying stop is, like, never going to work.

Yeah, exactly.

And then so for things that are sensory seeking or automatically reinforced, generally we look.

Or in general, we look at replacement behaviors anyways.

But in this case, we're looking for something that's going to match that sensory input.

Right.

And so I think your wig is.

I think you're on a good track.

Brittany: 00:09:10

I'm trying to tonight.

Shawna: 00:09:11

Goodbye.

Where did you get this wig from?

Oh, I just.

Brittany: 00:09:14

For Halloween.

Shawna: 00:09:14

Yeah, of course.

Brittany: 00:09:15

Of course you guys did.

Shawna: 00:09:16

She's like, can we have a pink one?

Brittany: 00:09:17

I was like, no, we're just going.

Shawna: 00:09:18

With whatever's in the Halloween bin.

Brittany: 00:09:20

I think I got two blue ones, so it'll be.

But I got curly ones.

I got straight ones, like all the things.

So I will.

Whatever.

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:09:29

And I do think.

So today's episode, we want to talk about behavior contracts.

I use them at my house.

I'm with my oldest in relation to sleep.

And I think even if you keep, like, this story in mind, like, not that you might do a behavior contract with her because it is really involuntary on her end.

So it'd be hard to hold her accountable to something.

But you could.

Anyways, we could talk through that as we go through the episode, too, and think about some potential ideas, because I do have some other ways that you could involve her.

Brittany: 00:09:54

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:09:54

And that way, potentially, at least in the middle of the night, you've got some strategies for her if the wig is not working.

Brittany: 00:09:59

And I would love to have A conversation with her that's kind and compassionate and saying, like, I know that this really calms you, but.

And not guilt, you know?

Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes.

Sorry, mom is so grumpy.

Perfect.

Okay, well, thank you for letting me tell my very long sleep story.

But you know, the.

The idea is just like we've all been here.

If you have a child, you've had nights without sleep or many nights without sleep, and it's so tricky.

So behavior contract.

I'm excited to dive into this one because me, this is the speech pathologist speaking.

I've obviously new to me and I know it through you, but this isn't a strategy that I have learned in my masters or anything.

So let's dive in.

Very excited.

Shawna: 00:10:38

Yeah.

So behavior contracts, I'm going to apply them to sleep today.

But really you can apply them to anything.

And I love them because they're a tool that's really collaborative.

So it's this idea, if you think of like a contract with someone, of creating this contract with the child.

And so you create the contract together.

And so I really like it because from the very beginning we're both talking about like how the problem, like in your case, how the problem is or why it's a problem.

Why are we talking about this instead of just coming up with an intervention ourselves?

Like, let's say you just showed up with a wig tonight in bed.

She'd probably be kind of confused about what this wig is doing, etc.

But it sounds like this morning you guys already started sort of this idea of a conversation.

Brittany: 00:11:18

Y.

Shawna: 00:11:20

And so I love it because you can, it's adaptable.

You can use it for many different concerns.

So like, if I've used it, the example I'll talk about probably today is my guy was having a hard time transitioning to bed.

So he was.

Usually we give him some playtime before bed and then after the play time, there's like big emotional responses.

And it was.

It happened like over a series of days, I'd say that's the other thing is I try to not jump on one instance of a behavior.

Brittany: 00:11:48

Yeah, that's true.

You see that a lot.

Like if it happens once, we're not gonna like run rush in with an urgent plan.

Shawna: 00:11:53

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And like we've been kind of loosey goosey, you know, over the summer and.

Brittany: 00:11:57

Probably some bad habits.

Shawna: 00:11:58

I myself know that I'm not my best parent at nightt.

I'm very flexible and like, oh, sure, like my boundaries don't mean much.

And so I can certainly Appreciate where I was contributing to the issue.

And so I think if you have issues like transitioning from something, it's a great strategy.

Anyone who's having trouble, maybe when, like, timers go off, you could use it there.

Sleep time strategies, going to school in the morning, like, really any sort of thing that comes up.

I think it's so adaptable to those situations.

One thing I would say, of course, is developmentally, you want to make sure that your child can understand the conversation you're having, has some idea of, like, consequences to things, and is able to engage in that back and forth.

Brittany: 00:12:43

For sure.

Shawna: 00:12:44

So my son is 6, and I probably started them with him maybe when he was like four and a half or five.

Very simple, though.

And then you can get more elaborate with, like, teenagers and that sort of thing.

Right, right.

Brittany: 00:12:55

Because things like time is so abstract.

Shawna: 00:12:57

Right.

For.

Brittany: 00:12:58

We know that for kids.

And so if it's like, if there's any sort of time element or, you know, like I was saying, like, oh, please, just stop.

You know, I was like, trying to say, like, give me two more twirls or whatever.

You have to make it concrete in the language appropriate for whoever you're working with.

And it's not about an age.

Right.

It's more about, like, their language level and their understanding.

Shawna: 00:13:14

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And then if you have a neuro.

Sorry, a neurodivergent child, and then probably keeping things more simplistic, at least if you're writing it out, we'll make it so that's less for them to process and that sort of thing.

Brittany: 00:13:26

And would you say this approach is nice because it's like sort of taking a behavior and framing it like, we can get through this together.

Instead of saying, like, well, you're just bad, so I'm putting you in timeout, or like, you know, just stop.

No, right.

It's like giving you something concrete to do that you can work on together.

It's just a kind.

Shawna: 00:13:44

From that perspective.

Yeah, yeah.

We've started a new series that we are sharing on our elemental side.

Like, but why, though?

And it came to me in the middle of the night, and I'm like, trying to keep it that in mind sort of all the time and keeping it as, like a mantra right now and encouraging.

Like, I think it's such a great thing to encourage parents and professionals is like, why are you.

But why are you doing this?

You know, and if you don't address.

And I say this all the time at work, too.

If you don't address the why then you're not going to solve the problem.

In the long term, it might, like, see behavior change short term, but you haven't really, like, you know, solved the issue.

And so, for example, as we just posted this, but my little guy was like, licking a shoe.

Because I love those examples.

Oh, my God.

And like, we're just like, stop licking your shoe.

Like, so disgusting.

Brittany: 00:14:27

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:14:28

And then the next days, like, in the bottom.

Brittany: 00:14:30

I just want to say to you, after the shoelaces, like, the bottom of.

Shawna: 00:14:32

His crown, of his croc, which is like, got to be the worst type of shoe to lick.

I don't know.

Anyways, and so then eventually I'm like, why are you doing that?

Brittany: 00:14:40

Yeah.

And because you guys did just like.

Shawna: 00:14:42

Your husband or whatever it was, we both stopped.

Brittany: 00:14:44

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:14:44

Just like we're in the car, like, turned around.

I'm like, stop, man, that's so gross.

Brittany: 00:14:48

Disgusting.

Shawna: 00:14:49

And then like two minutes later, he's doing it again, of course.

And so then I'm like, why are you doing this?

And then that's when he said he wanted to make paw prints.

And I was like, well, this is genius.

I see what you're y.

And then I could solve the problem.

Right.

And he doesn't hopefully, like, issue anyone.

Brittany: 00:15:02

Right.

Because you were able to see, like, why are you doing this?

Instead of just stop.

He.

He just kept doing it right after he said job.

Shawna: 00:15:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brittany: 00:15:08

So then you were like, well, I gotta get curious, which is our, like, thing about everything.

Right.

Get curious.

Oh, you want to make, like, footprints or paw prints because you, like, saw it in a puddle and now you want to recreate that.

Okay, well, let's do it.

Let's like give you puddles, my water bottle for you.

Shawna: 00:15:23

Like, let's find a sanitary way to do this and move forward.

Brittany: 00:15:25

And so the idea is.

But why, though, as a Kids do weird, weird stuff, you know?

Or like sometimes like my kid.

Involuntary hair twirling.

Like, how do we explain this?

And so we have.

If we don't look at the.

The function, then we're not going to solve it.

Shawna: 00:15:38

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that's where I like this.

Because you get this insight.

Brittany: 00:15:40

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:15:41

That you would never get if you didn't have that conversation with them.

Right.

And so you're sitting down and hearing their side of the story really first.

You know how you started.

Yeah, yeah.

Brittany: 00:15:50

So.

Shawna: 00:15:52

With my son, like I said, he's having trouble sort of transitioning from play back, like, into bed, which is like a very normal.

Brittany: 00:16:00

Yeah, exactly.

I got to be Alone in my bed when I was playing with my Lego like that.

Shawna: 00:16:05

Yeah, but traditionally, that hasn't been an issue for him.

He's usually generally pretty good if some mornings he'll transition well, etc.

And so we've gotten to this point where, like, every night, he was, like, yelling at me and slamming his door and, like, just so mad.

And obviously, that's not the way you want to end your night.

Brittany: 00:16:19

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:16:19

Yeah.

So I was like, okay.

Like, first I just put a timer, and I was like, okay, what if we just set a timer?

And that way when the timer goes, you know that it's bedtime and you can check in.

We've got a Google speaker in there.

You can check in.

How much time Slab.

Nice kind of thing.

I tried that for a couple nights, and it just, like, it's still.

I don't know.

The first night, things were, like, a little bit better, but he still got upset.

And then the third night, things were just back to sort of baseline and where they were before.

And so then I was like, I think I'm just gonna talk to him about it.

And, like, my oldest, he's, like, pretty responsible and, like, mature for his age.

Brittany: 00:16:50

He likes to do, like, the right thing.

Shawna: 00:16:52

Yeah, exactly.

And he likes, like, rules.

And that's.

So I thought, okay, I'm gonna try this.

Brittany: 00:16:56

So I.

Shawna: 00:16:56

The next day.

So not that night that we're in an argument, of course, the next day, like, maybe.

Brittany: 00:17:01

Important point, though.

Shawna: 00:17:02

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:17:03

Not in the heat of the moment.

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:17:04

No.

Like, maybe at lunch, like, way before bedtime's even coming, you know?

So, like, it feels like a safe space to chat about this.

Brittany: 00:17:09

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:17:10

So then the first part is, I'm gonna start building this contract with him.

So I was like, hey, man, like, the last couple nights, putting you to bed has been really hard on my heart.

I'm sure.

Probably hard on your heart, too.

Brittany: 00:17:21

That's a nice way to say it.

Shawna: 00:17:22

And just wanted to, like, see if we could come up with a better strategy.

We've tried the timer, and, like, remember last night?

You're still yelling at me at the end.

And so I feel like the timer wasn't the best strategy, but what do you think?

Brittany: 00:17:35

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:17:36

Instead of being like, you were yelling at me, like, I want to name the behaviors, and he knows, like, that's not cool, but, like, what do you think about it?

And then he probably said something while you did it too, and, like, something that he thinks that I was missing.

Of course.

Whatever.

And in that moment, I'll usually just Say, yeah, okay, I see what you're seeing.

Or I might try and like offer my perspective if I think he's like way out to left field.

But.

And so then what we came up with.

So then you want to figure out, like, okay, where's the problem occurring in this routine?

So in his case, he was already like getting changed and brushing his teeth, going to the bathroom, all of that before he was given his playtime.

And so it was like kind of the last thing that he had to do before.

Or like he had playtime and then he would go into bed, we read a book, and then we turn off the lights because he's ready.

Brittany: 00:18:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:18:20

So kind of looking at where in the sequence of bedtime is the breakdown.

So I want to be really specific about that.

So, okay, this is what we're currently doing.

And so my first question was like, all right, do you think we should change the order of things?

Like, would be like doing things in a different order make a difference for you.

And he didn't.

He was like, I don't think so.

Like, I like this order because I want my.

Like, I want maximum play time.

Because what we do is set a timer for like say 30 minutes.

And if he gets dressed, brushes his teeth and goes to the bathroom fast, then he's got so much play time.

If he's slow, then whatever's left on the timer is like what you get.

Brittany: 00:18:54

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:18:55

So he likes that system.

And then so we are chit chatting.

I'm like, okay, what can we do?

And he was like, what I want is, I want a five minute warning and a two minute warning and then a one minute warning and then I'll be ready to go to bed.

I will.

And so then we have to talk about what ready to go to bed means.

Right?

Brittany: 00:19:14

But he's like, I just want to know.

Like, I almost want to watch.

Shawna: 00:19:17

Yeah, he doesn't have a cousin.

I want to be able to check the time.

Exactly.

And then we set up like a bed.

So then, like, once the timer goes, going to bed means that you stop playing, you hop into bed, I will come in with you.

You can pick the book, or I can pick the book, whatever you want.

We will read two chapters and then it will be bedtime.

So being like, really specific about what success looks like.

Brittany: 00:19:40

But it comes back to that thing where time is so abstract, especially for kids.

Like, five minutes could feel like a day, right?

Or five minutes could be so fast.

And like, if he's saying, well, I don't know how Long five minutes is.

Then I'm like, always in shock when that darn timer goes off.

Shawna: 00:19:53

Exactly.

Yeah.

And so in this case, that's what he had said.

So I'm gonna try it out.

Right?

That's his idea.

That's how I'm gonna get his buy in is really, I might add in something if I thought I was missing something.

But.

Brittany: 00:20:04

But that's key, right?

Because you think, like, maybe this won't work or maybe it will.

It's like a science experiment, right.

We're not going in like, like, you're just saying, okay, here's our hypothesis.

We think this might.

This was your idea.

So now we're gonna play it that, like, it may not work.

And that doesn't mean the system's failed.

It just means this is like part A of the experiment.

Shawna: 00:20:22

Yeah, exactly.

Like, this wasn't quite the right solution, but hopefully we're making progress or something.

Sometimes we don't, though, as you know.

Right.

Brittany: 00:20:27

And we're chatting about it and so, like, getting his buy on, like he said.

Okay, so what's.

What happened?

Shawna: 00:20:31

So then.

So I'm being really specific about what success looks like.

And then we talked about reinforcement.

Not obviously using the term reinforcement, but I was like, okay, this is a tricky thing.

And I really get it.

Like, I empathize with you.

You're going to bed, you're going to be in the dark alone.

He sometimes has trouble falling asleep.

And I have a terrible time falling asleep.

I'm so empathetic to him.

And so we write it all down, like, okay, the problem right now is that going to bed is hard and we are both upset by the time we get to bed.

Brittany: 00:21:19

And you literally wrote that out on a newspaper.

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:21:21

Cool.

Brittany: 00:21:21

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:21:22

And then our new plan is.

Set the timer.

Mom will give me a five minute warning and a two minute warning.

And then what does success look like?

So success looks like, I get into bed, mom.

And I read a book, whatever.

So I've got it, like, written in, like, kind of bullet points.

Just a couple words.

Brittany: 00:21:39

Yep.

Shawna: 00:21:40

Because he can't really read either, so.

Brittany: 00:21:41

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:21:41

And I probably drew some pictures alongside it.

Brittany: 00:21:43

Good.

Good call.

Shawna: 00:21:45

And then what I want to talk about is the reinforcement piece here, because I get it.

Like, going to bed is a tricky thing.

He has this habit or pattern now of getting upset.

And so if he does a good job sort of taking those big breaths and managing this transition, I want to let them know, like, that was awesome.

You did great.

Right.

Now, traditionally in behavior world, we want to Provide reinforcement, like right away with it, right after the behavior.

Brittany: 00:22:09

Right.

Shawna: 00:22:10

In this case, I can provide some like, pray, like positive encouragement.

Be like, you did an awesome job here.

But it's sometimes not enough right in the moment.

And so we have Lucky Charms sometimes and that is a nice treat for the kids.

And so I was like, okay, I totally get it.

If you, if we can go to bed and no one's crying and we are like happy when we hop into bed and we go to bed without coming out, then let's have like Lucky Charms in the morning all together as a family.

Brittany: 00:22:42

Nice.

Shawna: 00:22:43

So we talked about that.

And then he signs it and I sign it.

Brittany: 00:22:49

Cool.

Shawna: 00:22:49

And then that was our contract.

And then you want to keep it.

So somewhere.

So on the first day that we started it, I actually slid it in front of him at the two minute mark so that it was like a fresh reminder.

Remember this agreement we have come in, the Lucky Charms are on the line, you know, like really encouraging him.

And then the second night I did the same thing, like slid it to third night I had it up on his door.

And then by the fourth night, we actually never talked about it again.

And we haven't like used like it's not or anything anymore.

Brittany: 00:23:19

Right.

And it's been less like it's been.

Shawna: 00:23:21

Yeah, he was fine.

Like after the first night, he really did.

And like I said, he's like a, It's a good strategy for him.

Like he wants a strategy.

He doesn't want to get upset.

But of course he's six and he doesn't know better.

Brittany: 00:23:31

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:23:31

How, like what else to do.

Brittany: 00:23:33

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:23:33

And so for him, something like this that's really concrete works well.

And then the biggest part is like sort of accepting that failure if it does come.

Like if you try a strategy is like going back to the drawing board and being like, okay.

And then doing that together.

Right.

Not just bulldozing, be like, well, I gave you an opportunity.

The timer didn't work.

Right, Right.

He's six.

He doesn't really know what other strategies.

Brittany: 00:23:52

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So what else can we do here?

Shawna: 00:23:54

Yeah, yeah.

And so going back to the drawing board.

Brittany: 00:23:57

So in this case, that five, two or whatever the sequence of timers was did work for him and he was okay with it.

But then were you able to fade that?

Because every night are you still.

Shawna: 00:24:06

No, no, no.

Yeah.

Now he just has his Google speaker going and he knows when the timer.

Brittany: 00:24:10

Goes off and it's back to just like a five minute timer or whatever.

Shawna: 00:24:13

And yeah, it's usually 30 minutes is what we do.

And actually that was sort of a behavior contract that we started before that.

Yeah.

Is like, I feel like I am going crazy.

Brittany: 00:24:23

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:24:23

Brush your teeth.

Yes, yes, please brush your teeth.

If you could go brush your teeth and would like just be constantly hounding them.

And of course that's annoying to him.

It's annoying to me, of course.

And so pre sort of this issue again, chatting with them or actually this time I don't think I did a full behavior contract.

Was just sort of like, hey, it's like really tricky for me.

And like you're six and it's good to be responsible for yourself now and like learn how to do things and stay focused and sort of worded it like that.

And so then I told him the plan.

I was like, the plan now is I'm going to set a 30 minute timer.

If you get all your stuff done early, you have so much playtime, like you could have 25 minutes of play time.

Brittany: 00:25:01

Right.

Shawna: 00:25:01

But if you sort of dink around, then you're going to have no play time left.

And that's like, it's up to you to sort of manage that and like good life skill.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Narrator: 00:25:11

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:25:12

And then it makes it his problem.

It's not my problem if you don't brush your teeth, it's your problem for not brushing your teeth.

And so that works really well at our house too.

Brittany: 00:25:18

All right.

I love this idea.

When we talk about behavior context and when I see that word, I think, ooh, this is going to be like really like intense.

I mean I, I did have some like intense moments in my own childhood.

My parents really, really like strict as we know you're thinking some of that too.

And, and so when I see this idea, I'm like, oh, this is going to be scary.

This like the behavior contract, it sounds like scary to me in my brain.

And what I want to say is, is not at all.

Narrator: 00:25:44

No.

Shawna: 00:25:44

Everything that you describe side is so kind.

Yes.

Brittany: 00:25:47

And so like we're in this together.

Shawna: 00:25:50

Yes.

Brittany: 00:25:50

And we both want to just like have a better night.

Let's like practice this.

And so it's almost like modeling this like healthy conflict resolution.

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:26:00

You know, exactly.

Brittany: 00:26:00

Like, I just, I don't want to.

Shawna: 00:26:02

Fight with you at bedtime.

Let's do this together.

Brittany: 00:26:04

It's modeling like how to solve a problem that's tricky.

And something like bedtime, like you were saying, like, I have a hard time falling asleep still as an adult, like, wouldn't that have been nice?

You Know, to.

To, like, have something like this.

So, you know, if you're a parent listening to this, the term in my brand name, maybe this is me.

But, like, contracts seem so serious and so, like, you know, like, scary or something.

And this is not at all.

Not such a kind strategy.

Shawna: 00:26:27

I know.

I was gonna say aba, like, could just use with a rebrand for a lot of our things.

I feel like.

Like, there's always these, like, technical terms, but really, when you boil it down, it's just like, a nice conversation.

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:26:37

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:26:37

And then I do think, of course, like, behavior contracts are just like, this set of steps, but that neuroaffirming and, like, gentle.

I don't even say gentle parenting, but, like, kind parenting strategies sort of embedded within is what I like to do.

Brittany: 00:26:54

Yeah.

Like, you're.

You're setting boundaries, and that's healthy.

And kids need boundaries because.

And like you said, like, they don't always know what the solution should or, like, what are my options here?

And so you're being kind by laying it out and saying, like, well, this is how it really should go, but let's, like, work through this together.

All right, then.

The other thought that I had was, we got asked this a lot from parents and our friends and stuff is like, well, aren't you just bribing them?

And I know I ask you this often.

Talk about how this behavior.

Because it's so different, and I get it, but, like, let's lay that out there.

How is this different from bribing if you're like, oh, well, you just gave them cereal.

You gave them.

You gave him marshmallows.

And that's why I fix the behavior.

So talk about that.

Narrator: 00:27:31

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:27:31

I think bribery, for sure.

The distinction is, like, usually bribery is done, like, in the moment.

So, like, he's already screaming at me, and I'm like, if you stop, I will give you cereal in the morning.

Brittany: 00:27:39

Right.

Shawna: 00:27:39

So it's not that.

Right.

I'm, like, being thoughtful and planning ahead and setting up a contingency to encourage the behavior.

And contingency means, like, setting up the opportunity.

Brittany: 00:27:49

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:27:49

For the behavior to occur and contact reinforcement or contact something good.

Yeah, yeah.

Brittany: 00:27:56

That you're setting it up ahead of time.

Shawna: 00:27:57

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:27:58

This is the biggest piece.

Shawna: 00:27:59

Right?

Yes, yes.

And, like, letting them know, you know what the plans are.

Brittany: 00:28:02

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:28:03

And sometimes you do that with reinforcements, and sometimes you don't.

Right.

Sometimes something awesome just happens, and you end up contacting reinforcement.

I'm trying to think of a good example here.

Like, you're out and it suddenly starts raining, and you have an umbrella to put up.

Great.

Now, when I travel, I might travel with an umbrella more often.

Right.

Because this really came in handy.

Brittany: 00:28:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:28:22

And so there's all types of, like, naturally occurring reinforcers in our life.

And that's why we do.

What we do most of the time is either like, real governed behavior or something that we like or we know we have to do.

Brittany: 00:28:34

Good.

Like a moment of discussion, though, because, you know, when you think of just that word, like, if I'm.

If I'm not a behavior analyst, I'm a parent or some other professional or a teacher or something, you think like, oh, stickers.

Those are reinforcers.

Or like, gummy bears.

Those are reinforcers.

Or smarties, you know, Like, I think that's what most people, when you hear in this sort of conversation, they're thinking, marshmallows for breakfast.

Or like a smartie or a sticker.

And what you're seeing is like, an umbrella in the rain.

Could be a naturally occurring reinforcement.

Reinforcer.

Shawna: 00:29:02

Yeah.

Be negative reinforcement because it stops the rain.

Also, I'm really diatribe on negative reinforcement, which I will not go on today.

I know, Sorry.

Brittany: 00:29:09

But the idea that to go back to what you were saying about, like, this natural contingency, like, naturally occurring reinforcement.

Shawna: 00:29:15

Right.

So we use this all the time in early intervention, where we'll play with, like, a ball dropper toy.

Brittany: 00:29:20

Yes.

Shawna: 00:29:21

And the reinforcement is after they say drop, we drop the ball, and they get to see that ball drop out and spit out.

And that's something that they love.

Right.

So then they're more likely to say drop so that they can see the ball spin out and all that stuff.

Exactly.

It happens fast.

Brittany: 00:29:34

And it's like that naturally occurring reinforcement is what you're saying.

Shawna: 00:29:37

Yeah, exactly.

But sometimes artificial reinforcers are useful where we're adding on something outside of the activity.

So in my case, a sugary cereal.

Brittany: 00:29:46

Okay.

Shawna: 00:29:46

Yeah.

Right.

But that sugar, like, it doesn't have to be a sugary cereal.

That was where my effort was, was in offering a family breakfast of special cereal.

Brittany: 00:29:55

Could have been anything.

Right.

It could have been, like, anything at all.

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:29:57

And so you can decide what's important to you.

So I think a lot of people that are criticisms of bribery are thinking of those, like, giving you smarties for doing everything.

Right.

If you do this, you get a smarty.

Yeah.

But what I'm saying is, like, we all need, like, a bit of that encouragement to do things, especially things that are hard.

And so for people that maybe are conscious or nervous about getting too far into bribery or certainly using food, I think there's like, sure, sure, I totally understand people's apprehension towards rewards or reinforcement that is food based.

But then make it like a movie night with our family tonight.

Brittany: 00:30:37

Exactly.

Shawna: 00:30:38

You know, and I think you and I do try and do that as like if we're working towards something.

I think I have a vague recollection of maybe you guys had like a reading chart going on or something at one point for reading books for school.

And then once you, like, kind of fill your jar, then it's like, we can all go for family ice cream or we're all going to go and do this fun thing that we've been waiting to do.

Brittany: 00:30:59

Right, Right.

Shawna: 00:31:00

And we do that in our own lives.

And as adults, we know how to do that.

Right.

If I have a meeting, I might get Starbucks before it because that'll help me, like, relax.

Or I might go and get lunch afterwards, or at the end of the day, I'm planning that glass of wine I'm gonna have, or like, I'm able to set those contingencies up for myself to motivate myself to get through the day.

Brittany: 00:31:20

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:31:21

For our kids, they don't have those skills, of course, and they're learning that.

Right.

And so that's where I would say the distinct.

One of the big distinctions comes in, is one, is it in the moment or outside the moment?

And is it, like, planned or, like, sporadic?

And if it's planned, outside the moment would meet that reinforcement criteria.

Brittany: 00:31:38

Okay.

Yep.

Love it.

Shawna: 00:31:40

And then like I said, we all.

Behavior change is hard.

And to do things, to break your own habits and have motivation to try something new, you usually need to tie it to something, you know, Because I think the example I often use is like, I want to go to the gym.

Brittany: 00:31:55

Yes.

Shawna: 00:31:55

You know, know just doesn't really work for me right now.

I don't have the time in the evenings to do it.

It would be a lot of, like, mental work to figure out the who's watching my kids, when are we eating dinner.

And like, just all that stuff that.

All of that is not motivating to me to actually go to the gym.

And so I don't go.

Right.

And so for the kids, they don't even have, like, that, like, you know, they don't even know how much they don't know.

Brittany: 00:32:18

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:32:18

And so I feel like it's.

Sometimes you want to add in these contingencies or these.

Set up these sort of opportunities that Encourage them to try something new or try strategy.

Right.

In a way that's, like, kind.

And also understanding from their perspective sort of what the.

Or why the behavior is occurring, instead of just going in with, stop it.

Brittany: 00:32:36

Yeah.

Right.

Thank you.

But I think, like, important segue or not segue important, like, pause moment to say, like, this is why this is different, and this is why this works.

So.

Shawna: 00:32:46

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

I.

It's so complicated.

Brittany is always begging me to do an episode on reinforcement, and I keep saying no, because then again, like, you.

Brittany: 00:32:54

Said, like, oh, the umbrella is negative reinforcement.

And, like, oh, my gosh, it's hard to break that down and, like, understand.

Really, like, for me, even as like, a.

You know, I'm not a layperson listening to this.

I'm like, I've studied that, too.

And I find it still hard to.

Shawna: 00:33:05

Explain and understand and, like, differential reinforcement, there's just, like.

It's so complex.

It is.

Brittany: 00:33:10

I know.

Shawna: 00:33:10

And that's really where like, a behavior analyst skill set comes in.

Right.

And sometimes I'll be.

Or often we'll be in sessions.

Brittany: 00:33:16

Right.

Shawna: 00:33:17

And they're like.

I'm like, what's your reinforcer in this activity?

I'm not.

Not, like, catching it.

Right.

And then the staff will tell me what they think the reinforcer is, and I'm like, I don't think that they find that reinforcing.

You know, like, if you're not seeing them reaching higher or.

Brittany: 00:33:32

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:33:33

Looking up to you or, like, you know, getting excited in anticipation of you dropping that ball or whatever.

I don't.

I think they're, like, sitting here.

Brittany: 00:33:43

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:33:43

And tolerating it.

Brittany: 00:33:44

Right.

I love that.

I love that, though, because you're right.

It can be tolerating it.

And I think of, like, in.

In a speech session or something.

And if, like, my K does something great and they do this sound and I give them a high five, they.

That might be like.

I think, like, yeah, that was amazing.

But that might not be reinforcing for them.

Shawna: 00:33:59

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:33:59

They're just like, oh, well, she's putting her hand up again.

Sure, I'll do it.

And so, like you said, they're tolerating it.

That's not reinforcing for them.

Narrator: 00:34:05

No.

Shawna: 00:34:06

And can I tell you, this happens to me, I would say, at least once every six months, I'll be entering supervision.

And we're working with a kid on something.

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:34:13

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:34:14

And we're working really hard to kind of figure out what the.

Like, you know, what the barrier to learning is.

And we'll Sort of crack the case and they'll get the right answer and all of us will be like, yeah.

Yes.

And then the kid is panicked and covering their ears.

No, we just punished this amazing behavior cuz we're all excited.

But that's not their love language.

I know exactly what you're talking about.

And they can hear it from like.

Brittany: 00:34:33

The other side of the office.

Like six people in the room were.

Shawna: 00:34:36

So excited and screaming and jumping and yeah.

The kid is like panicking with your hand.

Brittany: 00:34:41

Like you can't see us, but like our, our hands are over our ears.

Shawna: 00:34:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so I think getting curious about reinforcement is, is really important.

And then I even like going back into your behavior contract.

Right.

If your plan doesn't work.

Brittany: 00:34:53

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:34:54

You could look at your antecedent strategy.

So like setting the things you're doing kind of before the behavior occurs, like setting a timer or whatever those things are.

Brittany: 00:35:01

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:35:01

But then the second piece to look at is that reinforcement strategy.

And like, sort of what could we do to modify that?

Right.

Like maybe cereal wasn't really a great option.

Or some kids you'll find, find like initially they're especially neurodivergent.

Kids often like, like novelty.

And so you might find like the first couple days the sugar cereal is good.

You see immediate behavior change.

Right.

And then by the third day, things are kind of back to where they were.

Right.

And then oftentimes parents will say, well, it doesn't work.

Brittany: 00:35:31

Ah, yes.

Shawna: 00:35:32

And it's like, well, actually it's not the strategy.

Like the strategy itself did work actually.

But for your child they might, because we know with ADHD and autism, that need for maybe like a dopamine hit or like, you know, looking for that novelty where things kind of get old and boring quicker than maybe they're typically developing peers that they might be more likely to need like refresh or to get creative.

Sometimes we'll do at the clinic like a menu.

Brittany: 00:36:03

I like that.

Shawna: 00:36:03

And so you can pick.

Or other times we have like a treasure box depending on how old they are.

Like in, we'll have like a visual menu of all options.

Other times, like actual physical toys that they can grab from.

Brittany: 00:36:16

Cool.

Shawna: 00:36:17

And so I say that.

Brittany: 00:36:18

And something else I've learned from you is just because I like it doesn't mean it's reinforcing.

Exactly.

And that's another difference.

And so I might like.

Well, I personally don't like what was the cereal.

It's disgusting to me.

I would never.

I love that you said we all eat it together.

I'm like, oh, I'm not sorry.

But okay, so I might like, like something, but it, if it's.

Shawna: 00:36:39

It can be different.

Right.

Brittany: 00:36:40

Liking and reinforcers can be different.

Shawna: 00:36:41

Exactly.

Right.

So like a preference is not a reinfor.

Brittany: 00:36:45

You had a good example about like time of day and stuff too.

Like right now if I were to offer you a glass of wine, you might say no, because we're like in the middle of the podcast.

Britney, that's not appropriate.

I don't know.

Can you go through that example?

Shawna: 00:36:54

Yeah, yeah, I think, of course, like throughout the day different things are reinforced.

Brittany: 00:36:58

Yeah, exactly.

Shawna: 00:36:59

Or our preferences too.

Right.

Like reading for me right now would not really be a preference of mine.

Like right in this moment.

Yeah, yeah.

Like we're busy and it's the beginning of the day for me.

I like to get like lots of things done and like I would just not be like in a Zen state where I could sit read a book right now.

Right.

But tonight I will definitely read.

Brittany: 00:37:17

Yes.

Shawna: 00:37:18

And so our preferences change kind of throughout the day.

Brittany: 00:37:20

Exactly.

I was gonna say you love reading.

It's like your favorite thing to do.

So.

But important that.

Right.

If I were like, oh, let's get this podcast on and then you can read.

Yeah, you right now it would not be your reinforcer.

Your, your ideal reinforcer because you're like, no, after the podcast I gotta like do a thousand things.

Shawna: 00:37:34

Yeah.

It wouldn't be my preference of sort of chain of events for today and wouldn't be the way I would set up my day, you know, even though I do like it.

And so else was designing my day.

Yes, right.

They might design it.

Podcast reading, glass of wine.

Brittany: 00:37:48

Right.

Shawna: 00:37:48

And then it's only 11am and it's time for my wine.

Right.

And I'm like, well, this isn't right.

Yeah, exactly.

And so again for the kids if we get their buy in even for like something like this.

Right.

Like the.

That's where with the behavior contracts.

Like I want you to tell me what you think is ideal here or like for bedtime.

What do you think works best for this?

And then I did actually see the last last week maybe on Instagram, there was an article posted.

I can probably link the article actually too showing I think it was neurodivergent.

Children specifically did the best when they were offered choices.

Brittany: 00:38:22

Oh yeah.

Shawna: 00:38:23

And so like the more you can offer choices throughout the day.

And I was reading it and kind of reflecting and one time I had a friend over and she was like, I just would Never have thought to offer as many choices as you're offering.

I. Truthfully, I never really thought about it.

It's just like, I don't care what color plate you have.

I don't care what cup you have.

Brittany: 00:38:38

Right.

Shawna: 00:38:39

And.

And so I was.

When I read it, I was like, oh, that's, like, really interesting and makes sense.

And I think as adults, too, when we flip things, like I said, with the visual or with the schedule idea.

If you made my schedule, that would be weird.

Brittany: 00:38:51

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:38:51

I've already got an idea about how my day should go.

Brittany: 00:38:54

Exactly.

Shawna: 00:38:54

And so, like, kind of applying those same principles to our children can be really helpful to be like, okay, maybe you do have an opinion here where I didn't think that you did.

Brittany: 00:39:03

Mm.

Right.

Okay.

Shawna: 00:39:06

And so I think the behavior contracts are really nice because you're giving them some choices within a problem to be proactive and collaborative in a solution.

And then, like you said, this is, like, really good conflict resolution.

It is.

Yeah.

Really good for them when they're navigating social situations with their peers.

Like, I can see what their problem is, and I can advocate for myself and that sort of thing.

Brittany: 00:39:26

So many good examples are just popping into my head and coming back to this sort of reinforcement idea about, like, whether the time of day makes a difference or, like, their preference right now might be different from later.

And then, like you said, the offering, lots of choices.

I love it.

I was thinking of an example we've started doing in our house and how behavior change is hard and you got to get the right reinforcer.

So we've started doing this ridiculous Tidy Tuesdays in my house, because every, like, Sunday before the cleaner.

Well, we're very lucky, and we, like, have a cleaner come, like, once a month or whatever.

So, like, if you've ever had that experience, like, tidying, you know, getting ready is, like, also kind of.

Again, it sounds very privileged, and I want to, like, name that.

But getting ready for that is very stressful.

And so often my better half will be, like, very stressed on a Sunday because we're, like, getting ready for the week, and, like, the house is a mess, and then everyone is just completely dysregulated.

So I'm like, let's antecedent strategy this and build some, like, tidy Tuesday kind of thing so that it's not always a Sunday where everyone's losing their, you know, minds.

Shawna: 00:40:36

Already are.

Brittany: 00:40:37

Yeah, exactly.

So on Tuesdays, and I'm like, let's set this up.

Let's, like, we're gonna just pick One little zone of the house.

Not like tidy the whole house because that's also not manageable.

So, so we're gonna tidy this little area of the house and then when we do, we're gonna get it like go out.

And for my kids I thought was gonna be reinforcing was slushy.

And so we went and they're super cheap at the 7:11 by us.

It's like four bucks.

Perfect.

My ideal thing, right, we'll tidy Tuesday and we'll get slushies and it's perfect.

And the first time we went, it was the best.

And the kids were like so amazing.

It was amazing, amazing.

Second time we did it, we get there and my older kids like, yes, this is the best.

My younger one's like, I actually don't like slushies.

She was like, I want this like drink from Tim Hortons.

And I was like, oh, I'm not going to two places.

Shawna: 00:41:21

Like this is ridiculous.

Brittany: 00:41:22

And she's like, and I want a donut.

And I was like, oh my God,.

Shawna: 00:41:24

I need ch right now.

Cuz now I've made this thing.

Brittany: 00:41:27

And like we're not contacting reinforcement for.

Shawna: 00:41:29

The tidy Tuesday cuz now we're having a fight in the car about what.

Brittany: 00:41:31

The reinforcement's going to be.

And like everyone wants to go to a different place.

And so I.

It all fell apart.

But it comes back to this conversation about how like for her that was not going to be reinforcing.

So if I was just like, nope, you're getting a slushy, then I don't know, she probably wouldn't be so motivated the next time.

Shawna: 00:41:49

I would definitely.

I don't know if you like I feeling so many factors.

Yeah, you should follow through on the slushy or go to Martin's.

And then next week though for sure I would come in with a different strategy, like something sort of difference to just shake things up so that I don't.

We don't get into this pattern of renegotiating what we're doing after.

Narrator: 00:42:07

Right?

Brittany: 00:42:08

So again like this behavior contract is like setting it up in advance and then we're talking about what is that reinforcement going to be so that we're not like in at before bedtime having a meltdown going, wait, I didn't actually want a slushy.

Shawna: 00:42:19

Exactly.

Yeah.

And then you do have like something to reference too.

And that's what I like.

Because certainly with my six year old right now, he's will be like, you never told me that.

I'll be like, well you know that I told you that.

I know I told you that.

I don't understand why you're saying that to me.

And so then at least I have it, like, written down.

I can be like, no, I'll remember we talked about it.

Brittany: 00:42:37

It's right here on your door.

You sign.

Have to see.

You have to see your signature.

Shawna: 00:42:40

Yeah, yeah.

So I don't know.

I, I it.

But of course nothing is perfect.

And I think the important thing is not to abandon your Tidy Tuesdays and to just sort of rethink it and see if you guys can come up with, like, a different strategy or a different idea for the Tidy Tuesdays.

I do think that would be a really interesting topic, too.

And something I'm working through at my house is like, what's an allowance thing?

Or like, what are we specifically reinforcing with, like, outside re and what is just like, part of our community as a family and, like, your responsibilities and stuff.

Anyways, that's something I love.

Definitely dying.

Brittany: 00:43:14

And you and I too.

Yeah, you, we've chatted about that before.

And for me, like, putting your plates in or like emptying the dishwasher, those things are not Tidy Tuesdays.

Shawna: 00:43:21

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:43:22

Like a regular Tuesday.

We're just like, every day we're doing that.

Yeah.

But when we.

What did I make them do?

Oh, I, I made them organize a spot in my room.

Every spot in my house is, like, always a disaster.

Like, the toy area.

We cannot do the whole house, but this one little toy cabinet we are going through.

And we honestly, we had, like, three garbage bags, like, like a whole massive bin of toys to take to the clinic.

They love that.

They.

And then like a whole big thing for giveaway.

It was so, for me, that was so reinforcing.

Shawna: 00:43:52

Yes.

Yes.

Brittany: 00:43:53

Felt good.

Shawna: 00:43:55

A so nice.

Brittany: 00:43:56

Yes.

To be.

To be continued.

Whether that continues or not.

But wish me luck.

Okay, so back to this behavior contracts and thank you.

Sorry.

Have a couple, couple of tangents today.

Shawna: 00:44:07

I was thinking.

So, like, thinking back to your bedtime thing for tonight, I might, if I was going to put in a behavior contract, I would talk to her about it.

Which you kind of already have.

Right.

But you guys could have, like, a longer conversation about it and then you probably.

The wig's not going to be a magical answer.

Right.

You're going to have to teach her to use it in the moment.

Brittany: 00:44:27

O tricky.

Shawna: 00:44:28

And so mostly that would be like, redirecting.

Right.

She's grabbing your hair and then you're giving her the wig instead.

And like, you'll probably gonna have to play, I would imagine just like play around placement of the wig in your bed and like it's gonna move as you guys sleep.

So I think some of that, like be prepared for y.

And then my second thought was within this behavior contract, you could open up the conversation to be like, I gotta get sleep.

Brittany: 00:44:50

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:44:51

And so let's try out the wig.

But if the wig isn't working.

Brittany: 00:44:55

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:44:55

What's our strategy?

Brittany: 00:44:57

Oh, that's a good thought though too.

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:44:59

And is it that I move you back to your room?

Brittany: 00:45:01

Right, Right.

Shawna: 00:45:02

I don't know.

Brittany: 00:45:04

Because again, it's involuntary.

She's not trying to.

Shawna: 00:45:06

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:45:07

Or I put my shower cap on.

Shawna: 00:45:08

Yeah, exactly.

And you got to decide like only you can decide what that boundary is.

Right.

Are you.

Do you got another night in you?

Not in you?

Could you do a night where you're redirecting her for the whole night?

Brittany: 00:45:18

Right, right.

Shawna: 00:45:18

And then reassess the next night?

I don't know.

You know, like one night of sleep deprivation is hard.

Brittany: 00:45:24

You know what?

I couldn't even decide, like, what day would that be?

Like Friday I just want my relaxing, you know, Saturday I just want to sleep in.

But then I don't want this happening during the week, cuz then I got to go to work.

Shawna: 00:45:33

Yeah, exactly.

And this is why it's hard.

Right.

And I think this is why bedtime, I think in particular is very hard, is cuz as parents, we're.

Or at least in my house, I'm tired.

Brittany: 00:45:43

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:45:43

And so when my son, you know, he was like, can I have five more minutes?

I'm like, oh, sure.

You know, I just don't got it in me to say no and follow through and all that stuff.

But then I become this wishy washy person at bedtime where he's like, like, miles, I'm gonna play the slot machine and see if this works today.

And you can't blame them.

Right.

I've taught them that that works and that I'm not consistent.

Brittany: 00:46:04

Right, right.

Shawna: 00:46:06

So yeah, I do think you want to.

Like, you know, it is hard because you have to commit to like, commit yourself.

And I do think part of the behavior contracts, the reason they work is because they do also work on us too.

So I had this plan, I had this strategy.

Right.

I followed through on it.

Brittany: 00:46:22

It makes you more accountable as a parent is what you're saying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I would love then thank you for helping me troubleshoot my own issues here.

Let's talk about for behavior contracts.

Because again, it Seems like it went really, really well with your son, but he also really likes to kind of follow the plan.

So what about when the child's like, I don't care.

Do whatever you want.

Right.

Shawna: 00:46:41

And so then I would say, you don't have that buy.

I would go back to the step one of my contract.

Right.

Like step one where I'm talking to them about the problem is really getting that buy in from them, like, on your perspective.

Brittany: 00:46:51

Right.

Shawna: 00:46:52

You know, and so I might revisit that values conversation there and talk more about like, okay, here's the impact to us, you know, and then if they keep saying like, I don't care, then this isn't the strategy for you.

Brittany: 00:47:05

Right.

Shawna: 00:47:05

And then you might be the.

I might have to just come in with a plan.

Right.

And try that.

Brittany: 00:47:10

Okay.

Shawna: 00:47:12

But I would try and like, revisit the conversation and then sometimes I might even give it some space, like potentially.

And like you said, even this morning with your daughter, like, you're trying to be kind.

Brittany: 00:47:20

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:47:21

Right.

But then she was like, ah, sorry.

And so now you're feel like, obviously, like, a little bit of guilt went on.

And so even when we have our best intentions, it can still be shameful.

Like, earth could still have, like, a bit of shame to it.

And especially again, my son is quite sensitive.

And so if I said something, he would be likely to internalize that.

And so that's where you might see some pushback potentially.

Right.

Is they're feeling guilt and shame about their problem versus feeling supported.

Brittany: 00:47:48

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:47:49

And so if your first round of the conversation maybe didn't go well, I might give it some space, like wait 24 hours.

Brittany: 00:47:54

Good idea.

Shawna: 00:47:55

And then come back with a new sheet of paper.

I might even change it up a little bit, put their favorite stickers on it, you know, like, try and sell it.

Brittany: 00:48:01

Yeah.

Okay.

And I, I remember earlier you said, don't have the conversation five minutes before bedtime, do it at lunchtime, or do it like on a casual Sunday morning or something like, where we're not rushing, rushed and stressed because then we're both.

We're setting the situation up.

Shawna: 00:48:15

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:48:16

Much better than already when we're anxious before bedtime.

Okay, so coming.

The thing here is, like, it might not be the strategy for you if the client, if you're the client, if it's not, if your child or whoever isn't, you're not getting that buy in, if you can take some space or, and, or bring it back to values.

And we talk about this a lot.

We had that Discussion with a parent yesterday.

Right.

It was like thinking about what are the goals for this child for therapy?

Well, if the client themselves or the child themselves doesn't have that buy in, then you're not like, we're not working towards the Right.

Shawna: 00:48:44

Yeah, yeah.

And like they probably are missing the problem.

Or like this just like, isn't the strategy for them because potentially if they're neurodivergent have some social communication differences that make it.

So that's a strategy.

Like this is not that.

It's not actually that concrete to them.

It still seems a little bit abstract.

Brittany: 00:49:02

Okay.

Shawna: 00:49:03

And so that's when I might pivot and go to like a visual schedule.

Brittany: 00:49:05

Oh yeah.

Shawna: 00:49:06

Or try some other sort of antecedent strategies to see if I could help.

Or like sometimes if like your bedtime routine is just like so bad sometimes just like shake it up is enough.

Brittany: 00:49:17

Right.

Shawna: 00:49:18

I had this kid years and years and years ago.

He would only.

He was 6 and would only have a bowel movement in his pull up.

And like had been like that for years.

And so I had a supervisor come in and consult on this case with me and the parents.

And we had this whole plan.

We were gonna cut a penny sized hole in the diaper and gradually increase it.

Brittany: 00:49:39

Oh.

Shawna: 00:49:40

Until there was no diaper left.

That was our introduction intervention plan.

Brittany: 00:49:43

Okay.

Shawna: 00:49:44

This kid was very rigid.

He had so messy.

Brittany: 00:49:48

Yes.

Oh my gosh.

Shawna: 00:49:49

And so we put through this whole plan and then you know what the plan ended up?

Changing his bathroom routine just slightly.

Never followed through on cutting this diaper.

He just let us take the diaper off at a bowel movement in the toilet.

And like all of this time that we spent like thinking like, okay, we better do this, you know, but for him just she shaking up the routine was kind of enough for him to forget about like this habit that he developed.

Or like this.

I don't know if it was anxiety or like just a preference.

I'm not sure.

But that was enough to sort of shake it up.

So I do think if you're like really feel like you're hitting the head against the wall sometimes.

Just a bedtime routine shake up.

Do things in a different order.

Brittany: 00:50:25

Funny.

Shawna: 00:50:27

Move their bed to a different spot in their room.

Like something like that.

Just to change up your routine can be enough to just like.

Anyway.

Brittany: 00:50:34

Yeah.

So.

Okay.

Yeah.

So first shake it up.

See what happens.

Shawna: 00:50:37

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:50:37

Let things.

Let the subtle.

Okay, cool.

All right, my next question for like troubleshooting, because I can just imagine thinking, oh, this is gonna go great.

Shauna said I should do this, and then, like, no, it's not working.

What do I do?

Shawna: 00:50:48

Right.

Brittany: 00:50:48

So what if, like, the reward becomes the focus, and so it's all about this?

Like, well, I mean, I don't know, like, negotiating around the reward, too.

Like, I don't like slushies.

I don't want to do this.

I want to go to Tim Hortons or whatever.

Like, what about when the reward becomes a focus?

Then what do we do?

Shawna: 00:51:02

Yeah.

I think control is, like, an interesting behavior to think about, and potentially that's what's, like, managing the consequence.

If I don't.

It kind of depends.

I feel like when they're doing it, like, if they're doing it after the fact, like, once they've, like, done whatever was in the contract, and then they're like, well, I don't want that.

I want this.

I'd probably follow through, like, the first time.

Then if it happened again, I'd probably follow through with what they said.

Brittany: 00:51:24

You mean, like, give them whatever else.

Shawna: 00:51:25

They could as long as.

Brittany: 00:51:27

Yeah.

It's like, oh, I don't want.

I don't want.

Want these lucky charms.

I want that donut that's right there.

Shawna: 00:51:31

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:51:32

And sure, fine.

Shawna: 00:51:32

Have the donut.

Yeah.

I don't know.

It doesn't really bother me.

Brittany: 00:51:35

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:51:35

Yeah.

But if I started to see a pattern of this, then again, I might take that step back, find a, like, kind of quiet time, check in with them, be like, hey, I've noticed.

Yeah, our contract says we're having lucky charms, but no day this week have we had lucky charms.

Do you think we should change this up?

Brittany: 00:51:49

Okay, perfect.

Shawna: 00:51:49

And then I might just have that conversation.

If they're saying it before the behavior, like, the.

I don't know.

I'm gonna go into bed so I can get my lucky charms.

I would just ignore it and not really, like, say anything.

Brittany: 00:52:01

Right.

Shawna: 00:52:01

We talk about in ABA is, like, attention as a reinforcer.

Like, like, if.

So let's say they're like, I'm gonna get Lucky Charms tomorrow.

I'm gonna get Lucky Charms tomorrow.

And you don't really want them, like, focused on the reward.

It's a part of the learning process, but it's not something that I want you to fixate on.

I just would probably, like.

You keep saying it, but I'm not going to engage in a conversation about it.

I'm not gonna talk.

Like, I'll listen to you, and I'm not gonna say, stop saying that or anything like that.

I'm just gonna you say whatever you.

You want to say, and I would imagine it'll trickle away, but feel like the function behind that is a.

Would be important.

Brittany: 00:52:30

Okay.

Yep.

Fair.

Fair.

Oh, yeah.

Tricky.

Okay, what about like you said with you?

I was like, again, I always say.

Shawna: 00:52:37

It's magic, and you're like, it's not magic.

Brittany: 00:52:40

But to me, it sounded like magical that with your behavior contract that it just, like, magically, like, we didn't need to use it anymore.

So what about one that's hard to fade it?

Shawna: 00:52:48

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:52:49

Because I think BCBAs you guys are really good at, like.

Like, putting in a strategy and then fading it systematically.

So let's say I'm working with a neurodivergent child, and it's hard for us to fade this contract out.

What are.

What's.

What are you going to do?

Shawna: 00:53:01

Usually what I recommend to thin the reinforcement schedule is what we would call it probably.

Like, I don't see any harm in keeping a behavior contract visible.

You know, like, do I need to fade it out?

I don't know.

Brittany: 00:53:12

Maybe not.

Shawna: 00:53:13

Like, why, but the reinforcement for sure.

Like, I can't have, like, we can't have a family lucky charms party every day.

I don't got time for that.

Or, like, I can't take you for ice cream every week.

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

And so usually what we do during those times is we'd switch the reinforcement from, like, a.

An item to like, a point system or a sticker system or like, something where you're.

I.

You guys have done, like, pom poms where you're, like, acquiring, like, something like, similar to money.

Right.

Like, it's not money, but to them, it's, like, kind of like a currency, and then they can cash that in for something else.

Brittany: 00:53:45

Okay.

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:53:46

And then I might tie it in.

If I had other reinforcement systems going on in my house, would be kind of my third phase of thinning the reinforcement system is like, if we already have, like, an allowance system going in, I might tie it into that.

Or we already are doing a caught you being good jar.

Yeah.

Then maybe it's a pom pom in there.

Brittany: 00:54:02

Okay.

Shawna: 00:54:03

Just trying to, like, thin out the reinforce.

Like, move back to the most natural reinforcer is really what we're trying to.

Brittany: 00:54:10

You.

Right.

Shawna: 00:54:11

And so sometimes you'll start with this artificial reinforcer with and.

And then move to, like, maybe like, a money or, like, some sort of, like, token economy, we call them.

Brittany: 00:54:19

Yeah.

Just means, like, I get it.

My brain understands when you're saying.

Or they thin it out it makes sense to me.

Shawna: 00:54:24

Yeah, yeah.

And then, like, gold.

Brittany: 00:54:26

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:54:26

What should naturally maintain this behavior is like, really, you should just go to.

Brittany: 00:54:29

Bed because it's time.

Shawna: 00:54:31

Yeah, exactly.

And like, I do talk to my son a lot about that.

And, like, was talking to him about, like, the importance of sleep and that it's like cleaning your brain and making it so that you're ready to learn tomorrow.

And, like, we do talk about those things too, so that his values.

Right.

Brittany: 00:54:45

Are hopeful.

Shawna: 00:54:46

And he is like, that he'll ask me in the morning, how many hours of sleep did I get last night?

Because, like, he knows.

And same with, like, food, like, we talk a lot about what.

What we're having for dinner and how it fuels your body and that sort of thing.

So he's like, very interested right now in trying stuff if it's like a veggie or something, because he wants to, like, that's his value.

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:55:08

He'll show you his bicep.

Yes.

Going right to my butt.

Shawna: 00:55:12

Bicep or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And so I think if you also, like, have those adult sort of value conversations at a kid level, it will also help your sort of end goal too.

Right.

And those are like, the big picture reasons that we do what we do is because we know they're good for us as adults.

Right.

Can make those choices.

Brittany: 00:55:29

Okay, Makes sense.

Makes sense.

All right.

I like it.

And then you.

Shawna: 00:55:32

We talked about how we.

Brittany: 00:55:33

We have talked a lot about, like, sleep being this behavior contract idea.

What about for something really tricky like homework, like getting your homework done.

It's like, again, having these value conversations.

But some kids may not care that they get their homework done.

So tricky.

But you could use it for something like that.

Shawna: 00:55:49

And that's where you'd probably, like, need to make it contingent on something else, you know, that, like doing the homework.

I would talk to them about why we do homework.

Right.

Like, we do homework because we want good grades.

Because you want to be a scientist when you grow up.

Brittany: 00:56:02

And that's like, go right to the end goal.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, you know, big life values.

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:56:07

As or like whatever you think would, like, tie into your kid.

Right.

And then for the homework, probably, like the something in the rest of the night is probably going to be contingent on your homework completion.

Like, my job as a parent is to make sure that you.

That you're doing your homework.

Right, Right.

And so our family rule is when we come home, everyone gets 30 minutes to whatever, go to the room and do whatever they want.

And then we all do our homework for one hour.

Brittany: 00:56:36

Ah, right, right.

Shawna: 00:56:37

I'm here to help you if you need it.

And then that's where I might.

If they're just like, I don't care about my homework, then I would be curious about why, you know, like, what part of this homework is not fun for you?

Should I be.

Do you want me to me to write it with you?

Do you want me to sit beside you?

Do you want.

And some of those maybe aren't feasible for some families, but I would say, like, I would try and come in with like a lot of support and be like, supportive, encouraging, you know, like really pairing and establishing good rapport where you feel like you can tell me stuff.

This is a safe spot.

I'm gonna help you.

Brittany: 00:57:06

Right.

Shawna: 00:57:07

And then my plan would be to fade myself out.

And so let's say I said like, okay, I'll sit beside you.

You know, I'll sit here and do the homework with you.

I'll write that in the behavior contract.

Mom will sit beside you.

Brittany: 00:57:16

Cool.

Yeah.

Narrator: 00:57:16

Right.

Shawna: 00:57:16

We'll do three days of that.

And then by the fourth day, I would probably just like be like, oh, I gotta go to the bathroom.

Just zip out, go to the bathroom.

You keep working, I'll be back.

Brittany: 00:57:26

Right.

Shawna: 00:57:26

And then maybe I need to go get some water.

Brittany: 00:57:28

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:57:28

And then I'll just start sort of naturally fading myself out and see how it goes.

And then if that's going well, I'd sort of maybe revisit my contract.

Okay.

Brittany: 00:57:36

So good application to other things outside of bedtime homework.

This could be a really, you know, useful thing, getting out the door for schools.

Shawna: 00:57:44

Another, like, good one.

Just to see if there's like a barrier to, like, why, what are we missing?

What system is missing at our house to help us get out the door.

And then again, it's like you, the reinforcer for getting out the door.

Could be just like picking the song in the car.

Could be, you know, something very simple.

Doesn't have to be cereal on your way to school.

Brittany: 00:58:04

Yeah, yeah.

Skipping down the road instead of walking or whatever makes your kid feel good.

Shawna: 00:58:08

Right, Exactly.

Brittany: 00:58:09

And so what I love about this whole discussion is everything that we've talked about is skill building.

Shawna: 00:58:14

Yes.

Brittany: 00:58:14

In so many ways, very, very cool.

So we're talking about skill building and not about forcing someone to be like, compliant.

Not about, like taking a behavior and saying you're bad.

And like, this is bad.

And so we got to fix it.

It's really neuro.

Affirming is really kind and compassionate.

It Sets boundaries that are healthy.

But it's really, really kind.

It's, it's really cool.

I like it a lot.

And so, you know, I also like how you said it's not always about being perfect.

Like we may not get it perfect the right time, the first time.

And so it's like we're celebrating when things go well.

We're acknowledging when things maybe like need to be shaken up a little bit.

But then we're in it together and it's, it really is like a collaborative process.

Which I love about that too.

Shawna: 00:58:57

Yeah, yeah.

I was going to say, you know what we could put in the show notes is I can make one like a sample of a behavior contract and that way people can see an example of what we've used.

Brittany: 00:59:05

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:59:06

And then like we said, sort of adjusting the wording based on like how old your kid is and what works well for them, adding visuals.

Brittany: 00:59:12

If that's helpful.

I'm going to put it in the show notes.

We actually have a behavior contracts sleep toolkit that's free.

Shawna: 00:59:17

Yes.

Brittany: 00:59:17

So we've got that.

And it's so nice because I know when you and I started talking about this I was like, I need a lot of visuals.

I'm not understanding how this is going to look.

I was like, is it really going.

Shawna: 00:59:27

To be a contract?

Brittany: 00:59:27

And you're like, yeah, it's really a contract.

It's a piece of paper.

So we've got an example in that toolkit and so I'll link to it that.

And it's so cool.

And it can be fancy.

Like I think you and I made like a nice looking one.

But it can also just be on a post it note.

Shawna: 00:59:40

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:59:40

Like it can be just like a scrap piece of paper where you sign it at the bottom.

So never feel like like we'll, you know, give you examples of what something could look like, but it could just be real simple.

Shawna: 00:59:50

Exactly.

I was just thinking one more quick tip that I do with my kids if I don't have time for this whole behavior contract idea.

Brittany: 00:59:56

Oh yeah.

Shawna: 00:59:56

They are used to giving me a handshake with a DL.

Brittany: 00:59:58

Oh.

Shawna: 00:59:59

And so it's like a good way if we're sort of like maybe out in a store or something.

I'm trying to curb the behavior or like address something.

I'll give them the boundary and then shake on it.

Cuz then it's like we both heard this right.

Like I'm like making sure that me and I didn't just say something and you're kind of Listening and kind of looking at the cookies over here.

We made a deal and came in.

So if you don't have time for a full behavior contract, doing a little contract with a handshake at the end could sometimes be good.

You don't have the same visual to go back to and like the written stuff, but in the moment, if you're in a pinch, I do find it works.

Brittany: 01:00:29

That's really cool.

Okay, I like it.

I like it a lot.

And so consistency, like, that's part of it.

You want to be consistent with whatever you're choosing and try something.

I encourage you to try this this week.

Like, I'm going to try it.

Shawna: 01:00:42

I'm going to write a behavior contract for something.

I don't know if it's my Tidy.

Brittany: 01:00:45

Tuesday, if it's my hair.

Shawna: 01:00:46

Yeah, you got some options, got some.

Brittany: 01:00:48

Ideas, and something's going to come out this weekend with me and my kids.

I want to try it and I'm going to come back to you for my troubleshooting and we may even talk about it again on the podcast.

But if you're a parent listening to this and it sparked anything for you,.

Shawna: 01:01:00

Like, please reach out to us.

Brittany: 01:01:01

We would love to answer your questions or tell us your story of how it went and whether it was a success and we will celebrate with you or if you thought, hey, you know what?

Something went to go right, like, what do we do here?

We would love to answer that.

So please reach out to us.

You can always send us a DM.

DM on Instagram or Facebook.

We're @NeurodiverselySpeaking.

You can email us at hello, neurodiverselyspeaking.com and we'd love your ideas and just your input.

Shawna: 01:01:26

Thanks, everyone.

Brittany: 01:01:27

Thanks so much for listening and I hope you get a good sleep tonight.

Shawna: 01:01:30

I hope you do.

Thanks.

All right, take care.

Brittany: 01:01:33

Bye.

Before we go, we want to remind our listeners the topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice.

Please contact a professional if you have questions.

Shawna: 01:01:44

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences.

We'll also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space, but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

Brittany: 01:01:56

See you next time.

Shawna: 01:01:57

Bye.